Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Because males aren't females. They are, at population level, bigger, stronger, faster, more violent and more criminal. Therefore females have to be aware of male presence in order to be aware of danger. That is not of course to say that all males are dangerous. It's to say that at population level, the danger from a fellow human is massively more likely to come from a male than a female. So our instinct is to protect ourselves from that danger.
Being trans doesn't change a male's biological sex. A transwoman is just as likely to be violent and criminal as any other male.
It would be completely unnatural to ignore survival instincts built into our DNA over millenia. Those instincts are there for very good reason.

I think your feelings are the result of gaslighting by the TWAW movement. (Trans Women are Trans but they don't like us using initials for that!) I'm live and let live; I'll call a man Susan if he wants, I'll chat about lipstick and whether my shoes are available in a size 11 or not, and I'll refer to him by his preferred pronouns. What I won't do is accept him in my daughter's safe space.

"my protective instinct kicked in and I don't know why."

You DO know why!

"So if someone who was born a man wants to live as a woman, I have no issues"

Except you do have issues, hence your original post. You don't have any problem with people dressing any way they want to - great! - but no matter how much you internally try to tell yourself off, you are aware that trans women are still, at the end of the day, just men.

Trans women or trans men?

If it was a trans woman (i.e. a person with a penis) I would be glad they were using the correct bathroom

If it was a trans man I would feel sorry for them that presumably they are having to sit down on a seat that is almost always covered in piss

Either way, I wouldn't feel fearful in a way that a woman is likely to if they saw a person with a penis in their safe space

It's a natural and healthy response for women to fear male strangers. Men as a sex class represent a threat to women. This is why so many things are separated by sex in the first place; 99% of all violent crime and all sex crimes are committed by men. It's simply safeguarding. Your instincts are perfectly sound.

This.

It's a safety issue - your young teen in a confined space with an unknown physically stronger male - possibly perfectly nice but you can't tell the good ones by looking.

Design plays a role as well - I have been in a mixed sex toilet and felt fine ( I don't have religious restrictions or serious sexual assaults in my past ) - it was open to manned lobby area and full of mothers with pushchairs taking advantage of easy to use facilities. Most though are poorly thought though or repurposed existing designs where safety and comfort of female has been dismisses as irrelevant.

Mixed changing rooms are more dangerous to women - that has hit the press in past.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

On one hand there are book out there like The Gift of Fear telling us to trust our instincts - then a whole movement insisting we need to deny them for ideological reasons - all the time living in a women victim blaming society.

You watched a male walk towards and go in the female toilets that 2 15yr old girls were in; and still waited outside?

I'd have gone in BEFORE 'she' did!!

Exactly.

Of course you do! It’s the whole “would you rather be stranded in a forest with a bear or a random man” question that’s been doing the rounds all summer on social media. Spoiler alert: the bear won.

I don’t know what the answer is—there is a big difference between a trans woman like Ella from Married at First Sight / Celebs Go Dating and a big bearded bloke who has thrown on a wig for the day. I don’t know how we can be inclusive of the “legit” trans women and the not-so-legit ones.

This.

this is how your kindness and acceptance of people like this has been repaid, by ever more unacceptable behaviour.

A man should NEVER be in a female toilet! I dont care if he is dress like a pig or a sunflower!

I think this is worth repeating. And I addition, just because one woman doesn't have an issue giving away her rights to men, doesn't mean that she should expect other women to give up theirs.

It is about the loss of female spaces and the safety risks of this.

Same feelings with DC at a swimming pool changing room.

It’s not a mystery. It’s because men are responsible for nearly all violent/sexual crime. Not all men (TM) but enough for women to need to be wary especially when vulnerable.

Why do you want to embrace men larping as women going into women's single sex spaces?

OP - wanting to embrace all walks of life etc and wanting to protect single sex spaces are not mutually exclusive. I am perfectly supportive of someone wanting to live the life they feel comfortable with but I don’t want a man in a toilet for women. Just like I wouldn’t send my daughter into the men’s toilets.

"Most authentic self" that's the kool aid tired old trope 🙄 their authentic self is a man, who likes to dress and present as their personal view of a woman is, unless you think that women are a costume for men to wear?

In this they are mutually exclusive. If you choose to "embrace" a man is a woman, you're saying that they are entitled to be in womens spaces if they want to, because you're accepting their authentic self is a woman. If you're not saying that what are you embracing?

You don't know why? Really?

Really??

"Authentic" means "real" or "true" or "genuine". His authentic self is male.

Millenias of evolution have ensured you recognise the danger of a Man being where he shouldn’t be, especially when he’s disguised.
Men cosplaying as Women are even more dangerous than ‘regular’ Men. Nearly all Male serial killers have a cross dressing paraphilia, that should tell you all you need to know.

It’s because you know it’s inherently wrong for someone with a penis (aka a man) to be in a women’s space. It’s not rocket science!

I feel like you are like me OP. I want to support trans people but only if it doesn’t impose on others. So I’m all for people living how they they want however:

• I want mixed toilets so it doesn’t matter what sex anyone is or male / female / mixed available. I don’t feel comfortable thinking about my young DD being in the female toilets with a transgender woman.
• Sports and competition should be based on biology to avoid any advantage.
• Jails / detention settings should again be set by biology or have separate areas to avoid advantages etc.

I am not anti trans, i am happy for people to live and love how they want but it shouldn’t be at a disadvantage to someone else