Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Exactly. It's not that poster in our position and yet here they are overriding women

"I'm invested in putting men's jollies above women's comfort. I'm so arrogant that I think I have the right to dictate other women's boundaries"

Indeed they are, fortunately.

Or give a shit about the women who now no longer can use these facilities because of their religion meaning they now self exclude.

Yeah we know.

Btw. It's not just about safety from males. It's about our right to privacy and dignity away from the male gaze.

It is.

You don't take advice from women either.

Why isn't it beholden to men to make other men who are trans more comfortable in single sex spaces?

If men are having problems in men's spaces due to the behaviour of men - why would anyone make that women's problem to solve?

Again. All men regardless of gender identity are "legally entitled" to use women's toilets. It's not governed by the law. We don't have "bathroom bills" in the U.K. It's a social contract which the vast majority of men respect.

Or give a shit all the other legitimate and fair reasons women don't want males in their spaces because they use women and disrespect women in this and don't recognise things like dignity and privacy and trauma.

Yep we get It Dadjoke.

We must centre the males cos they are more important.

We've kinda established this from your posts before that you don't give a shit about women.

👍 Why do our rights get lost?

If you say so. Heaven forbid you listened and responded to what I actually said, instead of taking the opportunity to repeat your point.

Which is why I and others don't engage with you. QED.

Why isn't it beholden to men to make other men who are trans more comfortable in single sex spaces?

Yes why can't the male sex class ensure all men no matter their presentation are safe?

@DadJoke

Decent males do not knowingly enter women's spaces.

I don't want to have to share with the non-decent ones thanks.

You don't take advice from women either.

I take advice as I see fit, like anyone. I'm not obliged to listen to any one person, am I? But I'm certainly not going to listen to men about what it means to be a woman.

I'll take the banning of puberty blockers, the adoption of the Cass Review, the ditching of self-id, the acceptance of sex realist views being WORIADS, the clear, unequivocal admission by the current Prime Minister that transwomen, even those with GRCs, do not have the right to enter women's single sex spaces including toilets, the reversal of the dehumanising, women erasing language in the NHS, the proposed new guidance for schools, the change in policy regarding the housing of transwomen prisoners, the many court cases and the compensation awarded thereof to women who refuse to be cowed into silence and bullied by exponents of GI as a failure if you like.

More to do? Definitely and I will use the language necessary to make it unmistakably clear what the problems still are and how they need to be resolved and I care not if some find that rude. There is nothing wrong with women being blunt, we do not need to couch our requests in submissive tones or plead.

No-one is saying trans people are going away, nor have they said they want them to.

The time for compromise is long gone and that it due to the trans lobby. Once upon a time we did ask nicely, we did expect there would be equal respect and consideration and the result is the absolute shower of all the previously mentioned of course all accompanied by threats of death, rape, sexual violence and violence towards the women who dared to object to the direction of travel and the destruction of women's rights.

The general public are now far more aware and repeated surveys show they are not on board with the demands being made by trans lobby groups and their allies.

Yep.

Yet you respond to all my posts just not the ones where I ask the uncomfortable questions. You never respond to those, but readily respond to all others.

You realise readers can see this; right?

You've been 'not engaging' very hard on this thread for a whole day and night, to the extent you've had several posts deleted, I believe. So I'm not sure what you think your posts are demonstrating.

You're not obliged to listen to anyone, as you've demonstrated.

But this really isn't solving anything. I appreciate you're angry but this discussion has become needlessly combative, as it always does.

As I said earlier in the thread, you have some good points. Why make it so no one will listen to them except people who already agree with you? Wouldn't it be nice to get the whole of MN talking about this?

This, exactly. Most males identifying as women are aware that many (it's actually most) women don't want to share our spaces with males. They do not care, because they don't respect our boundaries.

Well summed up and articulated.

Because men make everything OUR problems to solve. That worm that dangles between their legs and tells them that women are important [!], also tells them that we are responsible for their problems.

Why make it so no one will listen to them except people who already agree with you? Wouldn't it be nice to get the whole of MN talking about this?

Again, no need for your concern, I'm happy with my posts.

I'm glad they can. Although I imagine most people can't be bothered with reading this because it's literally just squabbling.

I've said my reasons for ignoring questions. The information is there if you want to take it on board. If you don't, that's your own look out.

But no, I can't agree with things you've made up in your head. In no way am I cowardly and I certainly can hold my own in a debate.