Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

And maybe in time you'll be in the right frame of mind to start considering their points. As I've said before, the cognitive dissonance is strong, but ultimately our rational thoughts and consciences assert themselves.

Well, second person pronouns (you) are used when you are talking to someone.
It tends to sound odd, or even rude, to refer to someone using third person pronouns when they are there.
If I'm in a meeting and Mary makes a point and Fred repeats it as if it was new I don't say "She just said that" I say "Mary just said that".

I find it easier to just avoid pronouns altogether, you honestly can't go wrong then.

@ArabellaScott I am glad I was brought up the way I was, I was never forced to bow to a man. My Nan was awesome and she taught me well. She'd be horrified if she was alive now! She'd be so proud of all the brave women speaking out though.

I am still unclear what some posters think about transwomen- whom I will call men,thanks- in women's spaces. There's been so much obfuscation about pronouns, misgendering, rudeness and their hurt feelings.

At least @PicturePlace has made her feelings clear: she wants unisex loos. Ok. I disagree with that, but at least it's clear and unequivocal.

And it continues. Clearly I am wrong in the head. Sorry, "not in the right frame of mind".

That's how I see it. I know many males and TRA trolls come on here, but I post not to convince them, because they are so twisted with their hatred of women and bigotry they won't be convinced - but for those others who are reading and had absolutely no idea what 'being kind' to transwomen (males) in women and girls spaces actually means. Many of us have come around to understanding the issue by reading these posts.

YY.

It definitely takes time

If I'm in a meeting and Mary makes a point and Fred repeats it as if it was new I don't say "She just said that" I say "Mary just said that".

Well quite. As my mother used to say Who's she? The cat's mother? .

As a lurker who has been reading the thread with interest, what I have observed over the last few pages is a group of several posters ganging up on one, deliberately misconstruing her posts, implying some pretty awful things about her, and calling her a bully.

Eye opening indeed

You're not exactly impartial, though, are you? I've seen your posts on other threads.

I don’t think people have misconstrued those posts. And if you don’t believe saying the things that were said by that poster was ‘bullying’ then obviously you have a different definition to the word bully.

It's critical, for me. Girls need to have their boundaries respected, and to feel able to put them over "kindness" and being polite to men.

My Nan was awesome and she taught me well. She'd be horrified if she was alive now! She'd be so proud of all the brave women speaking out though.

Mine too. She was a brave and forthright woman who got herself a divorce in the 50s. Not that easy for a working class woman.

You mean like the ones saying I wouldn't put my pronouns in an email signature? Or the ones pointing out you can't swear at other posters because it's against MNs rules?

Not sure either of those is particularly objectionable.

How patronising.

That's totally fine by me, if that's what you say you have learned, then so be it.

That's why most people choose not to engage with these threads.

They are certainly quick enough to attack strong women when they are questioned.

So @MontagueMoo have you come to back up the belief that misgendering men is more harmful than the removal of single sex spaces for women and girls , or is this just a fly -by scolding ?

I agree with you on that.

However, rudeness is not the answer.

If any posters feel their posts have been misconstrued, why not simply say what you think about men in women's loos? It's easy. Just say it straight out like some other posters have, without bringing in being rude to random people you meet on the street.

They are certainly quick enough to attack strong women when they are questioned.

There is nothing strong about pandering to males it is the easy option, but don't think they think any better of you than they do of those who don't. What they say about those women who deem themselves trans allies, being kind, etc., is unprintable here.

Same as my Nan, she divorced in the 50's took the pill without her husbands consent and lived alone for years.
She was big on boundaries and not betraying who you are for a man. I always remember her saying "No woman NEEDS a man" we did everything together, sledgehammering, plastering, flower arranging, sewing and cooking. I miss her so much she was so strong. I have tried to instill the same lessons into my own daughter.

The reason is that a large man followed your daughter and her friend into a single-sex space. It's normal for you to be worried by that. Stop trying to be kind, and start protecting women's spaces for your daughter's sake.

This is really interesting.

I can see that being 'rude' is really a no-no for you.

But how does a girl say 'no' if a man tells her that saying 'no' is rude?

I agree with you on that.

However, rudeness is not the answer.

Then judging by how you define "rudeness" you don't actually agree with me on that. If I need to point out that any man is violating my boundaries and tell him to stop or leave me alone, I will do so, and I will encourage all other women and girls to do so.

But how does a girl say 'no' if a man tells her that saying 'no' is rude?

Precisely @ArabellaScott