Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

So in your world @PaillettenBedeckt the Darlington nurses are bullies for not wanting to undress in front of fully intact male who claims to be a woman and keeps asking them when they are getting changed to ensure he has a ringside seat.

That person is male, he is a man irrespective of what name he now uses, irrespective of what clothing he wears, he is male, a man and should be clearly identified as such including to his face if necessary.

That's how I see it. I know many males and TRA trolls come on here, but I post not to convince them, because they are so twisted with their hatred of women and bigotry they won't be convinced - but for those others who are reading and had absolutely no idea what 'being kind' to transwomen (males) in women and girls spaces actually means. Many of us have come around to understanding the issue by reading these posts.

I've had similar things happen to me, so I empathise. There is definitely a risk of fawning behaviour being encouraged that puts women in danger. It can be hard to stand up for yourself in those situations.

I'm glad you wouldn't do misgender someone to their face though.

I genuinely don't care about writing what you like on MN or saying it in a private conversation or whatever. I'm not the thought police. But I just can't countenance the idea of meeting a random person and calling them he or she when you know it's going to cause them distress. It's not hard to just be nice. If someone introduced themselves to me and said they wanted to be called Captain Robot Bubblegum the third, I'd internally roll my eyes and probably bitch about them later. But I'd call them that because it does me no harm to not deliberately upset someone to make a point.

I've made myself perfectly clear.

If you then want to go on and extrapolate that it means something different, I can't help you.

I don't why you are going on about the minor "crime" of misgendering when women are being raped and attacked daily. It's like bailing out the Titanic with a thimble. Distraction.

Exactly.
There’s also been a huge attempt to brainwash us all into believing transwomen are actual women. Not all of us have fallen for it.
Your visceral reaction was just that, visceral. We react instinctively and physically to the presence of a male. If they wear dresses and makeup and call themselves Tiffany it doesn’t change what they are - male.

When you meet a random person you just ask and use their name, no pronouns and tying yourself around like a pretzel required.

I guess Maria MacLachlan was rude for misgendering Tara Wolf to her face. While testifying in court, about being punched in the face.

It appears that the judge in that case agreed with our Righteous Guardian Of Genteel Manners For Demure Ladies. Because although the fragrant Tara was found guilty, IIRC no damages were awarded to Maria due to the misgendering being just as bad as being punched by a male.

For some fetishists, compelling speech is part of the fantasy. Quite common, in fact, as paraphilias most often depend on the non consensual participation of others. Whether that response.is horror or fear.

It is useful to consider the effect of teaching girls to be kind and polite above all else.

A kind of lesson in martyrdom.

Absolutely I think that trans widows film I saw recently should be compelled viewing for people turning a blind eye to the reality of the fact that for many trans women it is essential that women are compelled and the cross dressing escalates as a paraphilia without a care to the impact on others.

I don't think anyone on this thread was talking about walking up to a random TW and saying anything to them, rude or otherwise, so it's weird that it's gone down this path.

And yet he has no compunction about opening his own MN threads asking women for advice on his relationship issues. It's almost like he knows who the designated emotional support animals are.

That's fine. Using their name instead isn't bad manners.

Some people wanting to use particular pronouns, particularly those they've made up, does seem silly to me. I'm not going to overly pander to it. But I'd still use it if it was a direct conversation with them because I don't see any value in upsetting someone.

I'll admit I would likely text a friend immediately afterwards and say you'll never guess what just happened... I'd probably have a good laugh about it. But I would never be spiteful to them directly.

This. For any undecided lurkers, I think it is very instructive.

It’s distraction, pure and simple.

We must teach our girls to say please and thank you and never ever be rude. They must always do as they're told. If a man tells them up is down they must smile and nod and be kind.

Do you not think this is a GOOD thing? For your safety and that of your daughter?

I find the whole concept of 'misgendering' bizarre'. I have always used pronouns according to sex. Until 5 minutes ago, so did everyone else. Evidenced by things like using them for babies or animals, who have no concept of gender identity.

So why / how did that change? When was the consultation with us all? Yet suddenly calling a rapist 'he' if he 'goes by different pronouns' is rude/bullying/disgusting/etc.

I mean seriously? Does anyone want to explain how this shift happened?

And here you go on about names and pronouns when the OP is about men entering women's loos.
Distraction.

We must never mention the Big Bad Wolf has teeth.

This idea of not saying something to someone's face so as not to be rude is very interesting. I am a coward and wouldn't usually say anything to anyone's face

Well I'd say it was so I wasn't rude or upsetting them - but TBH especially round my teen kids it's also so I don't then have to deal with an adult male kicking off mostly likely verbally but still being intimidating - and that is 40 years of being a woman telling me it is a potential danger.

I don't assume danger - but judging the situation and it's not always clear what cause is best. I had address in late 20 taxi driver never seemed to find -and would try and drop me off in wrong place - if you questioned and they explain or discus it nicely I'd stop in car and sort - if they get aggressive when I'm by myself I got out and then dealt with being in wrong place.even when it was dark - luckily only a few streets out and DH came to meet. DH had confidence to argue back but I had to judge and risk asses the situation which was more dangerous being somewhere unexpected at night alone or in a confined space with an aggressive man who knew better and wasn't going to budge.

A male acquaintance was in my room. I was unwell and he brought me a drink. When he kissed me I didn't stop him because... Well, he'd brought me a drink when I was ill, he was 'nice'

Only as an adult have I become aware of unwanted forced social obligations ie someone telling you their name means you feel obligated to give yours.

I heard and FBI agent doing an interview how he overheard simple conversation with a random man on plane with a young lone girl - he knew everything about her travel plans - FBI man stopped her at airport and explained danger to her.

As a lurker who has been reading the thread with interest, what I have observed over the last few pages is a group of several posters ganging up on one, deliberately misconstruing her posts, implying some pretty awful things about her, and calling her a bully.

Eye opening indeed.

But I'd still use it if it was a direct conversation with them because I don't see any value in upsetting someone.

You use pronouns when talking directly to people? How odd you refer to people when in conversation with them as he/she? Pronouns are used when you are talking about a person who is not there.

Yes the whole pronoun/misgendering stuff has been used as a distraction from the OP which was specifically about males entering female spaces.