Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

How is telling all men (however they identify) to stay out of women’s spaces to keep us safe ‘being rude to their face’?

Or is this another distraction?

when it isn't in the slightest bit hard to just call them by the gender they have asked to be referred to

It is hard though and I'm simply not prepared to lie and gaslight myself and others. You do you @PaillettenBedeckt and I'll continue to stand up to attempts to control my speech to my own detriment.

And how is me calling a man a man 'rude' but men invading women's spaces and boundaries a'ok?

Is this another example of appalling double standards when judging men and women?

So, if a man is naked in a women's spa, you would call it rude to mention the fact?

If he has an erection should we just look away and not say anything?

Okay so you think I'm rude. So what? I believe reality is more important. I'm not a liar.

It really comes down to this. As I said, genderist smears, insults and DARVO are water off a ducks back to me.

Is that what I said?

Misgendering someone to their face knowing it's going to distress them is rude. No matter how you feel about X or Y.

I don't care what you have to say on MN, but if you would do that to someone's face just to prove a point, you're the one who is being unpleasant.

I'm sure it's a lot easier to argue a completely different point but I've made myself perfectly clear.

If women regularly slept, undressed, used the toilet or were otherwise extra vulnerable in those places then yes, I would, but we don’t - do we?

Can you really not see the difference?

If a man says he's a.woman, it's okay for him to be naked in front of girls and women?

It is rude to call it out?

Is it rude for a woman to misgender her rapist in court?

yes you have made your feelings clear.

you prioritise male feelings over the safety and dignity of women.

Using clear language is essential to protect single sex spaces. You are more worried about being rude to males than women’s safety. We don’t have to call trans women men to their faces to keep ALL men (however they see themselves) out of places where women are vulnerable and other areas of life where it matters like women’s sport.

But needing to use clear language is essential. If we can’t call a man a man then we can’t protect women can we?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/8647171/transgender-woman-sexually-assaulted-girl-morrisons/amp/

At what point would it have been ok to 'be rude' to trans sex offender Katie Dolatowski. The point where he pushed a 10 year old girl into a cubicle? Maybe when he ordered her to take down her trousers or perhaps when he threatened to stab her mother. Maybe someone should have been rude to him two weeks earlier when he was caught filming another girl under a toilet door.

Yes I asked that earlier. I’d love to know what Pallient thinks of that.

Or is this another distraction?

yes I believe it is.

The challenge here is that sometimes you need to state facts in order for your request to make sense.

I need to able to request that this particular nurse doesn’t turn up unaccompanied at my elderly mother’s house for her intimate care as he is male and that would distress her. If I was referring to that nurse as a woman or ‘she’ my request would not make sense and be far easier to deny.

We need to be able to use words with their proper meanings.

Males inserting themselves in women and girls safe single sex spaces, IS bullying!!

Even if you thought it was, it still does not excuse you bullying someone else.

Except you're DEFENDING the bullies. Not standing up to them. Likewise, you too, have become the bully. You are a gaslighter deflecting your own behaviour. DARVO.

Again, it must be easy to argue a different point but I've made myself perfectly clear.

Doing it to someone's face for no other reason than to make a point is shoddy behaviour.

It's not "bullying" to recognise a person's sex. Millions of years of evolution have gone into it.

Why is telling all men to stay out of women’s single sex spaces bullying them ?

Why isn’t it bullying to force women to share spaces with men who claim to be women? When we know some of them do it because they are acting out sexual fetishes, and some have done it to assault and harm women?

there is no logic to your position.

Nope. I don't care about whether you believe X or Y is unfair.

It still does not excuse being cruel to a random person's face.

I am unsurprised that this is being justified. Heaven forbid you don't get to make your point at any cost.

I have made myself perfectly clear. Misgendering someone to their face to make a point is bullying.

I don't care what you think about X or Y.

Classic diversionary tactics on this thread.

Poster who asked if women want separate buses and trains, there are separate women's carriages in many countries. Why? Because the men couldn't stop groping and harassing the women. But apparently women are the bullies!

Single sex spaces are required all over the world, in varying degrees. We allow them to disappear at our peril.

Nope. I don't care about whether you believe X or Y is unfair.

I guess that makes at least two of us then 🤷‍♀️