Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

1000 replies

ScottishLottie · 09/09/2024 12:41

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
PicturePlace · 10/09/2024 11:08

Wow! You may be so racist that you have a ‘visceral reaction’ to a woman of an ‘unfamiliar race’ (I can’t imagine what sort of race you refer to here) but I think I’m safe in saying that most of us would not.

That's great that you never experience discomfort around people of other races - me neither 🙌

I'm thinking of examples from my own life where I've seen white middle class women say they are "uncomfortable" that Muslim men gather around our road (we live near a Mosque), when they don't mention feeling uncomfortable around white men.

It's cool that you've never come across racism in your life - I have! And it's important to challenge that discomfort in people as being a "them" problem, rather than a "Muslim men" problem.

PicturePlace · 10/09/2024 11:09

Imagine saying that you have a visceral reaction to race in 2024. I have never had a visceral reaction to race. Certainly not one that is at a level I have to train myself out of!

Oh! To clarify, I wasn't talking about me. Hth

CrochetForLife · 10/09/2024 11:12

PicturePlace · 10/09/2024 11:04

How are women to 'work through' a fear response to strange men in confined spaces, what do you propose?

Are you advocating for female only elevators, female only office spaces, female only busses?

@PicturePlace Do you genuinely not understand the difference between females safe single sex intimate spaces; and elevators, offices and busses????

TheKeatingFive · 10/09/2024 11:14

A lot of people are dealing with cognitive dissonance on this one. We all need time and space to work through it.

However it's worth dissecting what's happened. We were sold an idea that this group were the 'most oppressed' and 'most marginalised' and we had to do something to help them.

This was (deliberately and cynically) positioned as the next gay rights movement and the progressive approach. With huge dollops of 'be kind', 'live and let live' and 'rights are not pie'.

However, under any scrutiny at all, it becomes clear that women and children are the losers. That we cannot react to men's 'feeling' they are women by giving them access to women's spaces without putting actual at risk.

Before we know it, we have men in women's abuse shelters, rape crisis centres, changing rooms, prisons. We have men taking women's opportunities in sport. And here's the rub, no genuinely oppressed person would want this for women. They'd be campaigning for third spaces instead.

Anyone with a brain and a conscience can see that men breaking down women's boundaries is not ok. So we need to say no. There will be a period of cognitive dissonance where we try to figure out how the 'good guys' got us here. I have some theories, but perhaps we'll never understand that fully.

But ultimately the penny should drop that this is a men's rights movement at women's expense. If that doesn't drop, perhaps that's because deep down you've always felt that men are more deserving of rights than women.

In the OP's case her protective instinct brought the truth out very forcefully to her. In time, hopefully she'll start unravelling the gaslighting and fight back

GailBlancheViola · 10/09/2024 11:14

Flibflobflibflob · 10/09/2024 06:01

Same, fuck you lot who seem to think ethnic minority women are equivalent to men. Your racism is showing.

It is not just misogyny and homophobia that runs through Gender Ideology like a river. Quite why anyone would wish to associate and promote that and then claim they are on the right side of history, kind, tolerant and oh so good never ceases to amaze me.

AgileGreenSeal · 10/09/2024 11:18

FlatWhiteExtraHot · 10/09/2024 09:08

Because they already have a loo they can use. The men’s.

Disabled people need the extra space for their wheelchair, their crutches, their equipment, getting changed, having a rest, etc. Brian doesn’t need extra space to sort out his wig and put his lippy on. He can do that in the men’s toilet too.

Well of course, I agree.

But if they won’t use the men’s at least using the disabled loo will keep them away from “female only” spaces.

BunfightBetty · 10/09/2024 11:18

TheKeatingFive · 10/09/2024 11:14

A lot of people are dealing with cognitive dissonance on this one. We all need time and space to work through it.

However it's worth dissecting what's happened. We were sold an idea that this group were the 'most oppressed' and 'most marginalised' and we had to do something to help them.

This was (deliberately and cynically) positioned as the next gay rights movement and the progressive approach. With huge dollops of 'be kind', 'live and let live' and 'rights are not pie'.

However, under any scrutiny at all, it becomes clear that women and children are the losers. That we cannot react to men's 'feeling' they are women by giving them access to women's spaces without putting actual at risk.

Before we know it, we have men in women's abuse shelters, rape crisis centres, changing rooms, prisons. We have men taking women's opportunities in sport. And here's the rub, no genuinely oppressed person would want this for women. They'd be campaigning for third spaces instead.

Anyone with a brain and a conscience can see that men breaking down women's boundaries is not ok. So we need to say no. There will be a period of cognitive dissonance where we try to figure out how the 'good guys' got us here. I have some theories, but perhaps we'll never understand that fully.

But ultimately the penny should drop that this is a men's rights movement at women's expense. If that doesn't drop, perhaps that's because deep down you've always felt that men are more deserving of rights than women.

In the OP's case her protective instinct brought the truth out very forcefully to her. In time, hopefully she'll start unravelling the gaslighting and fight back

Couldn't agree more with all of this.

CrochetForLife · 10/09/2024 11:18

@PicturePlace and others, read this article for WHY are single sex intimate spaces are so very important to vulnerable women and girls:

"There is a rather wonderful poem that I love by Kim Addonizio. It is called To the Woman Crying Uncontrollably in the Next Stall. It details bad sex, bad haircuts, bad bleeding and bad heartache. Its last line is a message from one woman to another in the next toilet cubicle: “Listen I love you joy is coming”.

I have been that woman crying in the toilets. I have been that woman listening to others crying, vomiting, pouring their hearts out, passing tampons and tissues under the door. I have seen girls patch each other up emotionally and physically, find out they are being cheated on by the same guy, wash the blood from their clothes, swap make-up, take drugs, plan to run away together.

It is not that women’s loos are some kind of utopia, but they are a female space where female bodies do female things. They have never felt entirely safe, especially public loos, but safeish, I would say.

The advent of the gender-neutral toilet has stopped all that. Many places now have a “gender neutral” loo or “men’s, women’s, plus gender-neutral” – which effectively means twice as many toilets for men as for women.

Theatres have excelled themselves in alienating women. At the Lyric, in London, for instance, women are invited to walk past a row of urinals to get to a cubicle. Who actually wants this? Do men want to pee in public? Do women want to see them doing so? And if somehow “trans rights” is your answer, then, again, we must ask why it is women who must always make way, have less provision than men, when women’s needs for clean and safe loos matter.

So I am relieved that the Government has said that new buildings – restaurants, schools, hospitals – must have separate male and female toilets and not these “universal” lavatories.

Thank God. Wanting to maintain women-only spaces has been a ridiculous ongoing fight over the past few years. The tide is turning. Our privacy, dignity and safety are not to be given away by men or anyone who cannot be bothered to think about why women might need those things.

Indeed, there is a fundamental refusal from those who believe that being female is just a feeling in a man’s head to accept that there is a difference between male and female bodies. Menstruating women have different needs to men. This can be hugely difficult for teenage girls. My daughters always came home from school bursting because the school loos were horrible places at the best of times. It is ludicrous to me that we are made to feel like blushing naïfs for wanting privacy. Menopausal women may find themselves flooding and need space to sort that out. Remember when Fleabag’s sister miscarried in the restaurant loo? Well, that happens. I am sorry if this is all too much information for you, but female experience is always somehow too much, too real, too damn inconvenient for those who think what matters is simply disembodied gender.

When I was put on a mixed-sex ward after nearly dying because of an ectopic pregnancy, I was throwing up constantly because of the morphine, had a catheter and was emotionally in a right old state. The men in the beds around me probably were in a bad way too, but I just didn’t want anyone seeing me like this. Do I really need to explain myself? Does any woman?

“Gender neutral” has meant, in reality, fewer facilities for women and more for men. But that’s part of the current stupidity that calls restricting women’s access to safe, private spaces progress. In reality, there is nothing neutral about shutting down women-only spaces."

CrochetForLife · 10/09/2024 11:20

Oh hell! That came out an absolute MESS! I will try and fix it.

PicturePlace · 10/09/2024 11:21

Do you genuinely not understand the difference between females safe single sex intimate spaces; and elevators, offices and busses????

Nope. The toilet part is in a cubicle. I see no difference between washing my hands next to a man {clutches pearls} and sharing a kitchen space with a man {OMG} or even {gasp} an elevator.

I don't know what you all are doing in the public toilet sink area that is so intimate, not sure I've ever come across someone with a need for a sacred hand washing space. Methinks you are exaggerating how important you find the {very secret private} handwashing part of the toilet experience.

PicturePlace · 10/09/2024 11:22

CrochetForLife · 10/09/2024 11:18

@PicturePlace and others, read this article for WHY are single sex intimate spaces are so very important to vulnerable women and girls:

"There is a rather wonderful poem that I love by Kim Addonizio. It is called To the Woman Crying Uncontrollably in the Next Stall. It details bad sex, bad haircuts, bad bleeding and bad heartache. Its last line is a message from one woman to another in the next toilet cubicle: “Listen I love you joy is coming”.

I have been that woman crying in the toilets. I have been that woman listening to others crying, vomiting, pouring their hearts out, passing tampons and tissues under the door. I have seen girls patch each other up emotionally and physically, find out they are being cheated on by the same guy, wash the blood from their clothes, swap make-up, take drugs, plan to run away together.

It is not that women’s loos are some kind of utopia, but they are a female space where female bodies do female things. They have never felt entirely safe, especially public loos, but safeish, I would say.

The advent of the gender-neutral toilet has stopped all that. Many places now have a “gender neutral” loo or “men’s, women’s, plus gender-neutral” – which effectively means twice as many toilets for men as for women.

Theatres have excelled themselves in alienating women. At the Lyric, in London, for instance, women are invited to walk past a row of urinals to get to a cubicle. Who actually wants this? Do men want to pee in public? Do women want to see them doing so? And if somehow “trans rights” is your answer, then, again, we must ask why it is women who must always make way, have less provision than men, when women’s needs for clean and safe loos matter.

So I am relieved that the Government has said that new buildings – restaurants, schools, hospitals – must have separate male and female toilets and not these “universal” lavatories.

Thank God. Wanting to maintain women-only spaces has been a ridiculous ongoing fight over the past few years. The tide is turning. Our privacy, dignity and safety are not to be given away by men or anyone who cannot be bothered to think about why women might need those things.

Indeed, there is a fundamental refusal from those who believe that being female is just a feeling in a man’s head to accept that there is a difference between male and female bodies. Menstruating women have different needs to men. This can be hugely difficult for teenage girls. My daughters always came home from school bursting because the school loos were horrible places at the best of times. It is ludicrous to me that we are made to feel like blushing naïfs for wanting privacy. Menopausal women may find themselves flooding and need space to sort that out. Remember when Fleabag’s sister miscarried in the restaurant loo? Well, that happens. I am sorry if this is all too much information for you, but female experience is always somehow too much, too real, too damn inconvenient for those who think what matters is simply disembodied gender.

When I was put on a mixed-sex ward after nearly dying because of an ectopic pregnancy, I was throwing up constantly because of the morphine, had a catheter and was emotionally in a right old state. The men in the beds around me probably were in a bad way too, but I just didn’t want anyone seeing me like this. Do I really need to explain myself? Does any woman?

“Gender neutral” has meant, in reality, fewer facilities for women and more for men. But that’s part of the current stupidity that calls restricting women’s access to safe, private spaces progress. In reality, there is nothing neutral about shutting down women-only spaces."

Edited

This is a very weak argument for sex-segregated spaces, FYI.

Tel12 · 10/09/2024 11:23

Because women are vulnerable. Ignoring this is ridiculous.

GailBlancheViola · 10/09/2024 11:24

Helleofabore · 10/09/2024 09:31

I think we can sum up yesterday’s discussion with:

Male people can be women because they want to be.

The world knows that they are not really women, but they must be able to act as if they are. A huge inconsistency.

Gender dysphoria is still being used as the leverage to emotionally manipulate others to allow male people to access female single sex spaces. Even though it is acknowledged that gender dysphoria is very rare and transgender people have been very vocal about how they should not be considered medical problems.

Language is not important when the people who wish to be seen as kind give away the words others need for laws and policies. But it is ok, as long as that person gets to still feel kind. Just another inconsistency.

Males who go through extreme body modifications earn the right to be considered women and society should give those male people extra rights to make sure their needs are met. Because they are different to all other male people who lose their penises and testicles due to disease and injury because they believe they are women, even though the world understands they are not women.

Those rare male people who have their penises removed are being used to also describe the wider group of male people with transgender identities, like those with gender dysphoria, even though they too are very rare.

Because society needs to believe that all males with transgender identities have gender dysphoria and have had brutal extreme body modifications when these groups are, in fact, rare and not the majority. Just another inconsistency. Just like some posters making such declarations also make judgements about the passing ability of male people and still consider that they are kind and well mannered.

Plus, female people can’t tell who is a male in any case because apparently we have all been sharing toilets with them for decades and never known! So again, another logical inconsistency… such a rare group but we all have used toilets with them for decades.

And of course, here is another big logic inconsistency. Some male people are so vulnerable in the male toilets and will be attacked so they must use the female toilets. But the female toilets are not safe either because men who want to attack will come in without any need to declare they are female….

So therefore we let attacking male people follow their male targets into the female toilets adding even more risk to female people. In fact, one could argue that letting these male targets for attack into the female toilets makes the female toilets even more attractive to those attacking male people! Such rich pickings of both sexes in one toilet block!

And that society should just ignore this rampant and overwhelming male on male violence issues by letting any vulnerable male into the female toilets. Rather than dealing with the source of attack directly - by campaigning to make male toilets safer.

Then there was the racism.

The coherency of the arguments we have seen on this thread has been lacking, I think.

An excellent summary, Helle.

Mischance · 10/09/2024 11:24

Your reaction makes total sense - you have nothing to be ashamed of.

We are being indoctrinated to question our most normal of reactions.

CrochetForLife · 10/09/2024 11:24

No, it isn't. It outlines EXACTLY why we need single sex spaces.

It's a space for women to flee men chasing them. To seek help with a male attacking them. To break down. To experience a miscarriage and get help. To suffer a flood and need help washing/drying our underwear.

It's clear you're a male who doesn't understand just how valuable this intimate safe space is for women and girls, and it's very clear you don't care. If you read that article and it didn't touch your heart, your soul and open your mind, it's because you trolling. It's that simple. I have yet to find a person who didn't read that article who didn't suddenly understand.

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 11:27

Okay, Picture Place. You advocate all spaces everywhere to be mixed sex. At least you're honest and consistent.

Mixed sex spaces are not viable for many. This includes some religious women, such as orthodox Jews and Muslim women. How do you propose they deal with all public spaces being mixed sex; should they just not ever leave the house?

TheKeatingFive · 10/09/2024 11:27

CrochetForLife · 10/09/2024 11:24

No, it isn't. It outlines EXACTLY why we need single sex spaces.

It's a space for women to flee men chasing them. To seek help with a male attacking them. To break down. To experience a miscarriage and get help. To suffer a flood and need help washing/drying our underwear.

It's clear you're a male who doesn't understand just how valuable this intimate safe space is for women and girls, and it's very clear you don't care. If you read that article and it didn't touch your heart, your soul and open your mind, it's because you trolling. It's that simple. I have yet to find a person who didn't read that article who didn't suddenly understand.

Some people are investing huge amounts of energy in NOT understanding. It must be exhausting to keep denying such basics.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2024 11:27

This is a very weak argument for sex-segregated spaces, FYI.

No, it isn't. FYI. But you're perfectly entitled to your minority view that all spaces should be mixed sex, of course.

soupycustard · 10/09/2024 11:28

If it's so pearl-clutchy for women to want women's spaces, I'm not quite sure why it's not equally pearl-clutchy for TW to insist on being in women's spaces. If it doesn't matter to them and their allies who's in what space, they can live by that and just go to the men's for goodness sake. At least TW are male and therefore not at anywhere near so high a physical risk from males as females are.

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 11:29

PicturePlace · 10/09/2024 11:21

Do you genuinely not understand the difference between females safe single sex intimate spaces; and elevators, offices and busses????

Nope. The toilet part is in a cubicle. I see no difference between washing my hands next to a man {clutches pearls} and sharing a kitchen space with a man {OMG} or even {gasp} an elevator.

I don't know what you all are doing in the public toilet sink area that is so intimate, not sure I've ever come across someone with a need for a sacred hand washing space. Methinks you are exaggerating how important you find the {very secret private} handwashing part of the toilet experience.

You've never washed period blood off your hands?

TheKeatingFive · 10/09/2024 11:29

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 11:27

Okay, Picture Place. You advocate all spaces everywhere to be mixed sex. At least you're honest and consistent.

Mixed sex spaces are not viable for many. This includes some religious women, such as orthodox Jews and Muslim women. How do you propose they deal with all public spaces being mixed sex; should they just not ever leave the house?

Or my friend who was violently raped and is horrifically triggered by unknown men in close proximity to her, particularly in vulnerable circumstances. What should she do?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2024 11:29

If it's so pearl-clutchy for women to want women's spaces, I'm not quite sure why it's not equally pearl-clutchy for TW to insist on being in women's spaces. If it doesn't matter to them and their allies who's in what space, they can live by that and just go to the men's for goodness sake.

Quite.

PaillettenBedeckt · 10/09/2024 11:30

I've had a quick skim through although I've got better things to do with my life than read nonsense, high fiving, and celebrations of childish behaviour.

I'd say exactly the same thing to a man who was rude to a trans man if he called him her or a woman to his face. If you are letting your ideologies persuade you that it's ok to deliberately say something that you know will distress someone to their face, then you need to take a good long look at yourself. It's bullying at that point.

Say what you want on MN, but to do that to someone in person is the height of rudeness. Manners cost nothing.

I wouldn't let a five year old speak to another human being like that.

And no, it's not you being a 'strong woman.' I have no desire to make people cower in little boxes, but out and out disrespect to another human being is not justifiable.

I don't give a shit if the entire lot of you want to pile on me because of saying this. I will not condone nor congratulate spite.

You may think you're strong women but don't test me by expecting me to support this crap. My grandmother was tougher than you when she was half asleep. She didn't teach me to let others hoot and holler about picking on other people.

It's grim reading.

CrochetForLife · 10/09/2024 11:30

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 11:29

You've never washed period blood off your hands?

He clearly hasn't. He clearly has like most males, absolutely no idea whatsoever what women use these spaces for. It's never even occurred to him.

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 11:30

It's only ever women who get accused of pearl clutching.

Another insult that frequently gets levelled at women who maintain boundaries.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.