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Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

1000 replies

ScottishLottie · 09/09/2024 12:41

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2024 09:18

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 07:20

So this is the narrative we must be aware of:

Women who say no to men are 'cruel', 'rude', 'prejudiced', 'nasty', like slugs, like racists, etc

It's an attempt to shame women into eroding or conceding their boundaries.

A list of insults and insinuations levelled at any woman who refuses to go along with what men demand - in this instance to be admitted to women only spaces and to be called 'women'.

This makes the inherent misogyny of genderism very clear. The entire movement is based on smearing women who refuse, women who maintain boundaries, women who are protecting themselves, other women, and girls.

I can't think of a clearer example of rape culture. Consider the cotton ceiling, 'sexual racists', and the aims are.very clear.

Remove barriers to men's demands. Shame any women who try to maintain them.

Yes. However it's like water off a duck's back to most of the women here. I would be ashamed of myself if I didn't push back for the sake of other women and girls, so nothing genderists say to insult me really bothers me particularly.

MagpiePi · 10/09/2024 09:18

FlatWhiteExtraHot · 10/09/2024 09:08

Because they already have a loo they can use. The men’s.

Disabled people need the extra space for their wheelchair, their crutches, their equipment, getting changed, having a rest, etc. Brian doesn’t need extra space to sort out his wig and put his lippy on. He can do that in the men’s toilet too.

And because, crucially, they don't want separate spaces. This third option is always turned down as being 'othering' or 'not inclusive enough' or something.

There are men who get a kick out of entering women's spaces.

Helleofabore · 10/09/2024 09:31

I think we can sum up yesterday’s discussion with:

Male people can be women because they want to be.

The world knows that they are not really women, but they must be able to act as if they are. A huge inconsistency.

Gender dysphoria is still being used as the leverage to emotionally manipulate others to allow male people to access female single sex spaces. Even though it is acknowledged that gender dysphoria is very rare and transgender people have been very vocal about how they should not be considered medical problems.

Language is not important when the people who wish to be seen as kind give away the words others need for laws and policies. But it is ok, as long as that person gets to still feel kind. Just another inconsistency.

Males who go through extreme body modifications earn the right to be considered women and society should give those male people extra rights to make sure their needs are met. Because they are different to all other male people who lose their penises and testicles due to disease and injury because they believe they are women, even though the world understands they are not women.

Those rare male people who have their penises removed are being used to also describe the wider group of male people with transgender identities, like those with gender dysphoria, even though they too are very rare.

Because society needs to believe that all males with transgender identities have gender dysphoria and have had brutal extreme body modifications when these groups are, in fact, rare and not the majority. Just another inconsistency. Just like some posters making such declarations also make judgements about the passing ability of male people and still consider that they are kind and well mannered.

Plus, female people can’t tell who is a male in any case because apparently we have all been sharing toilets with them for decades and never known! So again, another logical inconsistency… such a rare group but we all have used toilets with them for decades.

And of course, here is another big logic inconsistency. Some male people are so vulnerable in the male toilets and will be attacked so they must use the female toilets. But the female toilets are not safe either because men who want to attack will come in without any need to declare they are female….

So therefore we let attacking male people follow their male targets into the female toilets adding even more risk to female people. In fact, one could argue that letting these male targets for attack into the female toilets makes the female toilets even more attractive to those attacking male people! Such rich pickings of both sexes in one toilet block!

And that society should just ignore this rampant and overwhelming male on male violence issues by letting any vulnerable male into the female toilets. Rather than dealing with the source of attack directly - by campaigning to make male toilets safer.

Then there was the racism.

The coherency of the arguments we have seen on this thread has been lacking, I think.

OuterSpaceCadet · 10/09/2024 09:33

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 07:20

So this is the narrative we must be aware of:

Women who say no to men are 'cruel', 'rude', 'prejudiced', 'nasty', like slugs, like racists, etc

It's an attempt to shame women into eroding or conceding their boundaries.

A list of insults and insinuations levelled at any woman who refuses to go along with what men demand - in this instance to be admitted to women only spaces and to be called 'women'.

This makes the inherent misogyny of genderism very clear. The entire movement is based on smearing women who refuse, women who maintain boundaries, women who are protecting themselves, other women, and girls.

I can't think of a clearer example of rape culture. Consider the cotton ceiling, 'sexual racists', and the aims are.very clear.

Remove barriers to men's demands. Shame any women who try to maintain them.

And once you see it you can't unsee it.

No wonder misogynists monitor and report MN desperate to get women silenced. The success of trans ideology capitalises on the misogyny and ageism inherent in society. Shame is such a powerful tool to leverage against an already opressed class.

TinyRebel · 10/09/2024 09:37

This happened to my teenage daughter. She was absolutely terrified. Enclosed in a small space with a hulking great big man in a skirt. She did actually have the courage to blurt out “Get out, you’re a man” before he scuttled off.

101 were incredibly helpful. Said she should contact 999 if it happens again.

This ‘transgender woman’ is an autogynaephile. Paraphilias cluster. Part of his fetish is to involve unconsenting women and girls by inveigling his way into their spaces. Doing so has been legitimised by activists and women like the OP who want to #BeKind rather than have firm boundaries.

Helleofabore · 10/09/2024 09:40

TinyRebel · 10/09/2024 09:37

This happened to my teenage daughter. She was absolutely terrified. Enclosed in a small space with a hulking great big man in a skirt. She did actually have the courage to blurt out “Get out, you’re a man” before he scuttled off.

101 were incredibly helpful. Said she should contact 999 if it happens again.

This ‘transgender woman’ is an autogynaephile. Paraphilias cluster. Part of his fetish is to involve unconsenting women and girls by inveigling his way into their spaces. Doing so has been legitimised by activists and women like the OP who want to #BeKind rather than have firm boundaries.

I am sorry that your daughter had to deal with that. What a time! Your brave daughter will be considered to be a bigot worth shaming to some.

Poettree · 10/09/2024 09:41

"I feel like I've stepped on a slug!"

No, what you're feeling is embarrassment that your arguments are weak and easily dismantled, so you're having to stoop to insults.

RedToothBrush · 10/09/2024 09:43

Helleofabore · 10/09/2024 09:31

I think we can sum up yesterday’s discussion with:

Male people can be women because they want to be.

The world knows that they are not really women, but they must be able to act as if they are. A huge inconsistency.

Gender dysphoria is still being used as the leverage to emotionally manipulate others to allow male people to access female single sex spaces. Even though it is acknowledged that gender dysphoria is very rare and transgender people have been very vocal about how they should not be considered medical problems.

Language is not important when the people who wish to be seen as kind give away the words others need for laws and policies. But it is ok, as long as that person gets to still feel kind. Just another inconsistency.

Males who go through extreme body modifications earn the right to be considered women and society should give those male people extra rights to make sure their needs are met. Because they are different to all other male people who lose their penises and testicles due to disease and injury because they believe they are women, even though the world understands they are not women.

Those rare male people who have their penises removed are being used to also describe the wider group of male people with transgender identities, like those with gender dysphoria, even though they too are very rare.

Because society needs to believe that all males with transgender identities have gender dysphoria and have had brutal extreme body modifications when these groups are, in fact, rare and not the majority. Just another inconsistency. Just like some posters making such declarations also make judgements about the passing ability of male people and still consider that they are kind and well mannered.

Plus, female people can’t tell who is a male in any case because apparently we have all been sharing toilets with them for decades and never known! So again, another logical inconsistency… such a rare group but we all have used toilets with them for decades.

And of course, here is another big logic inconsistency. Some male people are so vulnerable in the male toilets and will be attacked so they must use the female toilets. But the female toilets are not safe either because men who want to attack will come in without any need to declare they are female….

So therefore we let attacking male people follow their male targets into the female toilets adding even more risk to female people. In fact, one could argue that letting these male targets for attack into the female toilets makes the female toilets even more attractive to those attacking male people! Such rich pickings of both sexes in one toilet block!

And that society should just ignore this rampant and overwhelming male on male violence issues by letting any vulnerable male into the female toilets. Rather than dealing with the source of attack directly - by campaigning to make male toilets safer.

Then there was the racism.

The coherency of the arguments we have seen on this thread has been lacking, I think.

You forgot the complete disregard for concerns about autism, gay conversion and victims of sexual assault and the inherent homophobia.

We also didn't talk about the ageism at all yesterday.

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 09:52

OuterSpaceCadet · 10/09/2024 09:33

And once you see it you can't unsee it.

No wonder misogynists monitor and report MN desperate to get women silenced. The success of trans ideology capitalises on the misogyny and ageism inherent in society. Shame is such a powerful tool to leverage against an already opressed class.

Female socialisation appeals very strongly to a morally judged 'shame' narrative. We've been talking about 'status' on the feminism board recently, and while men often tend to use 'success' games for status ('might is right'), women tend to be more often involved in 'virtue' games.

Female socialisation tells girls that they must be good and obey the rules, be conciliatory, be kind.

So yes, telling women they are not virtuous (cruel, slugs, racists) are attempts to leverage that status game against them by shaming them.

We can see the difference in the absence of anyone ever trying to tell men that they are 'unkind' in their treatment of non-conforming males.

The narrative is:

Some men are horrible to non-conforming males, therefore the latter must use women's services.

Women must not say 'no' to said males lest they'll be shamed for it, called bigots, etc.

I've never yet seen anyone making 'genderist' arguments try to shame a man for mistreating a 'transwoman' in male services. Not once.

It's tacitly accepted both that men will mistreat non-conforming males, and that the solution is to put said non-conforming males in with the women.

This is the hierarchy. Conforming males, non-conforming males, and at the bottom of the heap, women.

Both conforming and non-conforming males have their wishes considered and catered for, so we see this illustration of the issue:

Male toilets
All gender toilets.

Women don't get toilets, because we don't actually count as humans with agency.

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 09:53

In this scenario, women are scenery, a backdrop to the wishes of the males. The scenery mustn't talk back or complain or it spoils everything.

Helleofabore · 10/09/2024 09:54

RedToothBrush · 10/09/2024 09:43

You forgot the complete disregard for concerns about autism, gay conversion and victims of sexual assault and the inherent homophobia.

We also didn't talk about the ageism at all yesterday.

This is true.

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 09:56

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2024 09:18

Yes. However it's like water off a duck's back to most of the women here. I would be ashamed of myself if I didn't push back for the sake of other women and girls, so nothing genderists say to insult me really bothers me particularly.

It's always instructive when the insults come out.

Ad homs reveal more about the person using them than those they are applied to. Every time.

Helleofabore · 10/09/2024 10:01

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 09:52

Female socialisation appeals very strongly to a morally judged 'shame' narrative. We've been talking about 'status' on the feminism board recently, and while men often tend to use 'success' games for status ('might is right'), women tend to be more often involved in 'virtue' games.

Female socialisation tells girls that they must be good and obey the rules, be conciliatory, be kind.

So yes, telling women they are not virtuous (cruel, slugs, racists) are attempts to leverage that status game against them by shaming them.

We can see the difference in the absence of anyone ever trying to tell men that they are 'unkind' in their treatment of non-conforming males.

The narrative is:

Some men are horrible to non-conforming males, therefore the latter must use women's services.

Women must not say 'no' to said males lest they'll be shamed for it, called bigots, etc.

I've never yet seen anyone making 'genderist' arguments try to shame a man for mistreating a 'transwoman' in male services. Not once.

It's tacitly accepted both that men will mistreat non-conforming males, and that the solution is to put said non-conforming males in with the women.

This is the hierarchy. Conforming males, non-conforming males, and at the bottom of the heap, women.

Both conforming and non-conforming males have their wishes considered and catered for, so we see this illustration of the issue:

Male toilets
All gender toilets.

Women don't get toilets, because we don't actually count as humans with agency.

Well. At least we are ‘considered’ at all. And by that, I mean we are considered worthy of being human shields, carers and security blankets by those who don’t think glibly giving away the words we need to describe ourselves is harmful at all.

Because they can only think of their friends and not at a collective level.

RedToothBrush · 10/09/2024 10:01

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 09:52

Female socialisation appeals very strongly to a morally judged 'shame' narrative. We've been talking about 'status' on the feminism board recently, and while men often tend to use 'success' games for status ('might is right'), women tend to be more often involved in 'virtue' games.

Female socialisation tells girls that they must be good and obey the rules, be conciliatory, be kind.

So yes, telling women they are not virtuous (cruel, slugs, racists) are attempts to leverage that status game against them by shaming them.

We can see the difference in the absence of anyone ever trying to tell men that they are 'unkind' in their treatment of non-conforming males.

The narrative is:

Some men are horrible to non-conforming males, therefore the latter must use women's services.

Women must not say 'no' to said males lest they'll be shamed for it, called bigots, etc.

I've never yet seen anyone making 'genderist' arguments try to shame a man for mistreating a 'transwoman' in male services. Not once.

It's tacitly accepted both that men will mistreat non-conforming males, and that the solution is to put said non-conforming males in with the women.

This is the hierarchy. Conforming males, non-conforming males, and at the bottom of the heap, women.

Both conforming and non-conforming males have their wishes considered and catered for, so we see this illustration of the issue:

Male toilets
All gender toilets.

Women don't get toilets, because we don't actually count as humans with agency.

No attempts to shame when threats of violence are used either.

Kucinghitam · 10/09/2024 10:05

To The Righteous, female humans exist as partially-sentient support bipeds to service the desires of the actual real people. The support bipeds have to be allowed partial sentience, because how else can they absorb the scoldings and lessons in virtue, politeness, kindness, trauma-working-through, etc?

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 10:06

It becomes clearer and clearer to me that many men see the world in a sort of scoreboard ranking table, in which they place all men and themselves.

Women are not on the board at all, except perhaps as trophies or footholds.

I was scunnered to see pictures on social media of the New Zealand cricket team merrily smiling and dining with the men of the Afghanistan cricket team. All of them must be aware that women's cricket has been abolished by the Taliban, and that women have been vanished and silenced, had their lives reduced to the smallest of confined roles. And they just do not seem to give a fuck.

Helleofabore · 10/09/2024 10:08

There never is any acknowledgement of the endless threats of violence on social media from the very people demanding access.

There is also never any acknowledgment of the porn that gets posted from male people masturbating to the sound of female people in the toilets.

There is never any acknowledgement of the male people intimidating female people while in the line up or in female toilets.

Nor the sanitary product attraction.

ChishiyaBat · 10/09/2024 10:09

Wow @PaillettenBedeckt what a piece of work you are. Who are you to insult us? I don't care how unkind mean or whatever word you want to describe me or anyone else as for not believing this nonsense. I will never lie to save the feelings of a man whether he is in a dress or not.

As for the racism well that's just sick!

EasternStandard · 10/09/2024 10:11

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 09:52

Female socialisation appeals very strongly to a morally judged 'shame' narrative. We've been talking about 'status' on the feminism board recently, and while men often tend to use 'success' games for status ('might is right'), women tend to be more often involved in 'virtue' games.

Female socialisation tells girls that they must be good and obey the rules, be conciliatory, be kind.

So yes, telling women they are not virtuous (cruel, slugs, racists) are attempts to leverage that status game against them by shaming them.

We can see the difference in the absence of anyone ever trying to tell men that they are 'unkind' in their treatment of non-conforming males.

The narrative is:

Some men are horrible to non-conforming males, therefore the latter must use women's services.

Women must not say 'no' to said males lest they'll be shamed for it, called bigots, etc.

I've never yet seen anyone making 'genderist' arguments try to shame a man for mistreating a 'transwoman' in male services. Not once.

It's tacitly accepted both that men will mistreat non-conforming males, and that the solution is to put said non-conforming males in with the women.

This is the hierarchy. Conforming males, non-conforming males, and at the bottom of the heap, women.

Both conforming and non-conforming males have their wishes considered and catered for, so we see this illustration of the issue:

Male toilets
All gender toilets.

Women don't get toilets, because we don't actually count as humans with agency.

Male toilets
All gender toilets.

Women don't get toilets, because we don't actually count as humans with agency.

So much this, and all of the post. Why are we normalising this for girls? I'd love to vote all this away so they get language, meaning and agency back.

Helleofabore · 10/09/2024 10:17

Does everyone remember this video from two months or so ago.

https://www.vic.gov.au/theunsaid

I think we can see from posts on this thread who would agree with the creators that the women leaving the lift is a big old bigot. But the opening scene and the sports scene in this video are spot on for how women and girls are conditioned to ignore the harm they understand in those situations.

In the opening scene, this is a negative reinforcement. Ie. Don’t do this or you will make a male person sad and you will be a bigot.

In the sports section, the video uses positive reinforcement. Do this and you will make a male person very happy! Do this and be celebrated for your kindness and caring.

The Unsaid Says A Lot

So, think about what you're really saying.

https://www.vic.gov.au/theunsaid

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 10:21

The image there is very telling. All centred around the male.

EasternStandard · 10/09/2024 10:23

I can't stand that gender ideology centres the male and girls will just accept that.

We're going backwards. It's regressive, we could be doing so much better without this approach. For all children

PicturePlace · 10/09/2024 11:04

How are women to 'work through' a fear response to strange men in confined spaces, what do you propose?

Are you advocating for female only elevators, female only office spaces, female only busses?

WarriorN · 10/09/2024 11:05

Jfc

ArabellaScott · 10/09/2024 11:07

PicturePlace · 10/09/2024 11:04

How are women to 'work through' a fear response to strange men in confined spaces, what do you propose?

Are you advocating for female only elevators, female only office spaces, female only busses?

Are you advocating for mixed sex toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards?

Can you tell the difference between the places you list and the places I list?

If not, I'll explain: Women are more vulnerable in toilets, changing rooms, and hospital wards.

If you don't understand why, I can explain that too, although I have to go out for a bit.

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