Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Honestly because a trans woman in the bathroom is the same as a man in the bathroom. It’s exactly the same thing. You have these instincts for a reason, don’t try to allay your daughters feelings or fears about this either, those instincts exist to protect you, don’t try to override them. When somebody breeches female boundaries there is a bloody good reason you should be wary.

Same, fuck you lot who seem to think ethnic minority women are equivalent to men. Your racism is showing.

Maybe you should read through the thread, @PicturePlace , and you'd understand why fear and prejudice of men in our spaces is natural, and a SURVIVAL INSTINCT for women and girls, and the OP's response is natural, hardwired, and a survival instinct and she was right.
Comparing males who can RAPE WOMEN AND GIRLS, with people of colour, is not only racist and weaponising race to defend Male Supremacy, it shows great ignorance of the difference between the two oppressed groups, and men.

How are women to 'work through' a fear response to strange men in confined spaces, what do you propose?

I dont even know how to begin addressing the gross racism of the second half of your response, but I see other women have made excellent responses.

I can't tell you how queasy it makes me to hear someone tell women to 'work through' their instinctive and logical caution about males, and likening it to racist prejudice.

I hope very much that it is very clear to any woman reading that this is a manipulative, dishonest, and frankly reckless argument.

So this is the narrative we must be aware of:

Women who say no to men are 'cruel', 'rude', 'prejudiced', 'nasty', like slugs, like racists, etc

It's an attempt to shame women into eroding or conceding their boundaries.

A list of insults and insinuations levelled at any woman who refuses to go along with what men demand - in this instance to be admitted to women only spaces and to be called 'women'.

This makes the inherent misogyny of genderism very clear. The entire movement is based on smearing women who refuse, women who maintain boundaries, women who are protecting themselves, other women, and girls.

I can't think of a clearer example of rape culture. Consider the cotton ceiling, 'sexual racists', and the aims are.very clear.

Remove barriers to men's demands. Shame any women who try to maintain them.

Wow! You may be so racist that you have a ‘visceral reaction’ to a woman of an ‘unfamiliar race’ (I can’t imagine what sort of race you refer to here) but I think I’m safe in saying that most of us would not.

The visceral reaction is not to the unknown but the very much known. As the previously posted graphic shows, trans identifying males are many times more likely to be sex offenders than women. The reaction is to a male person in our space.

Why do you think women and girls don’t deserve single sex spaces away from men?

Who'd have thought that someone on a mothers' forum would actively argue for the rights of males to pee next to teen girls?

And shame all those who pointed out the reasons why it is not appropriate, even without a penis.

Phobia
an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

A phobia is a fear that is a disproportionate reaction to something. It is an anxiety that has become out of control for a reason which is disproportionate to what we face.

But fear also has it's place in life and we have it to help us survive. It is a protective instinct and one we should listen to and use to assess if what we fear is worthy of being feared.

In this particular case when you start looking at data and stats then it does not present a case for describing concerns about males in toilets as a disproportionate risk. It is a reasonable fear to have based on the number of offences and patterns of offence and who commits those offences.

We go further with this, it would be unwise to ignore your instincts based on that information.

This is in addition to a very vocal group who actively make comments about the harm they wish on women who don't believe they are men and the threats of violence. Then there are the numerous cases of harassment that women have faced. And lastly the emotional toll that has been dishes out in the form of dismissals and suspensions in work and the subsequent abuse for non compliance with saying someone is holding up four fingers when they only have three isn't minor.

All of these things make concerns rational, logical and reasonable.

They therefore do not meet the criteria for the definition of phobia. They do however meet the definition of fear as part of instinctive protection which naturally keeps us safe.

Telling someone to ignore their instincts is asking someone to do an act of self harm which may put them at risk. That's not ok.

It is ok to recognise risk profiles and issues if they align with real world issues in a proportionate way.

So yes once again words do matter. They are about power and control.

Someone has come here to tell women to put themselves at risk despite all the evidence and women's lived experiences because if women do this then then men don't benefit. And then tried to shame women for saying 'errrrr no hang on'. This is emotional manipulation and abuse of women.

It is not ok either.

Trust your instincts.

What also infuriates me about the toilet issue is that I have 2 boys, when they were 8 so still young they had to go in men’s toilets. Which they did as we did the right thing understanding that females need their own space. So I sent my boys into men’s toilets with the risks that entails whilst men in dresses expect to waltz into women’s toilets unchallenged and we are bigots or prejudiced if we don’t like this?! Just NO

Imagine saying that you have a visceral reaction to race in 2024. I have never had a visceral reaction to race. Certainly not one that is at a level I have to train myself out of!

I think it says a lot about that poster and their underlying attitudes to race which are slightly troubling. They have to make significant efforts to disguise their racism do they?

Fucking hell that's depressing.

Yes, same here.

It's called respect.

Not all women consent to males in their spaces, especially those who've been sexually assaulted

It's coming from an extremely privileged position to be able to proclaim that they should.

It's quite amazing how The Righteous know exactly which half of the population need to Be Kind, Polite, Sensitive, Not Mind Because It's Only A Word, and Work Through Their Trauma.

Exactly. And which half's every whim needs to be catered to.

Just a bunch of MRAs. And that's the most charitable way of putting it.

You have subscribed to a set of values that are supposed to identify you as a "good person" and now you are trying to find a way to reprogram your survival instincts so you can maintain your "good person" status.

It is normal and sensible to be cautious around men who transgress women's boundaries. Men using women's spaces are doing just that, they may not intend to do physical harm but unfortunately we can't tell just by looking which men do intend to do harm. It's why we have single sex spaces in the first place.

You are free to choose your own boundaries but please try to avoid indoctrinating your daughter with "be kind", it could be to her detriment one day.

Gavin fe Becker wrote a book called The Gift of Fear which explains your visceral reaction and why you should listen to it. If you don't want to read the book there is a series of videos (by the same name) on YouTube which explain it.

Really good point. I have two little boys myself.

There is such wilful blindness going on here about who the genuinely vulnerable are in society.

Children, female abuse victims, female prisoners, orthodox religious, sick and disabled - all fair game for their rights and safety to be compromised. So long as the men who like to erode boundaries are prioritised. 🙄

It smacks of bullying to me.

No, the bullying is coming from the trans extremists and people like you who are determined to force women and girls to give up their female single sex spaces and services for men, so men get all the choice from all the spaces and services available and women and girls get fuck all choice.

How many women and girls need to be harmed and/or have to self exclude from the very spaces and services that are there for their safety, dignity and privacy? Why are women and girls not worthy of any consideration at all?

It doesn't make sense in my head other than apparently I secretly fear or don't like men I don't know

Again why were single sex spaces introduced in the first place?

I think posters were right the first time around that you are all too keen to shame female people who don’t agree with you. You complained women would not listen to you and that you didn’t seek to shame and you had a nuanced opinion.

I haven’t seen any ‘nuance’ to your opinions. I have seen a stance of ‘I am alright Jack’ from a person who has allowed emotional manipulation to support a socialisation need to be seen as the kindest and most well mannered. And I have seen you then use your need for that to be shown to be completely hypocritical in your own actions when women point out the flaws and inconsistencies in your logic.

I am glad that you own up to your opinions though. That they are unevidenced and only based on emotional reasoning. Because it has given readers a great insight into how someone can feel so moral in holding those opinions, even though they understand they don’t have any science or factual basis, and then that kind mask slips to show what it showed this morning.

then that kind mask slips to show what it showed this morning.

Doesn't it just, every single time. The bekinders, most tolerant are so hypocritical only one group (males) are worthy of kindness in their world.

I certainly don't know any women in real life who are vehemently opposed to trans women like I read on MN.

Then the bubble is yours. Also you're confusing people who "want female only spaces and don't believe males can be considered women except for a tiny number of "true transsexuals" which is the majority view in this country, with whatever you've personally projected onto women here, who are actively campaigning against the excesses of gender identity ideology.

I’ve read through your posts with mouth open, wondering how you can learn that women are multiple times more likely to be attacked in mixed sex toilets and think to yourself: “nah, fuck then. Who cares if more women are raped, it’s more important that men get what they want.”

I would be ashamed to think or promote that. To actively promote a higher risk of violence to the oppressed class of people (women) in order to privilege the oppressor class (males) even more than they already are is mind-boggling. It’s unfair, unkind, oppressive and cruel. I have no idea how you feel able to put that view forward without feeling deep shame.

Because they already have a loo they can use. The men’s.

Disabled people need the extra space for their wheelchair, their crutches, their equipment, getting changed, having a rest, etc. Brian doesn’t need extra space to sort out his wig and put his lippy on. He can do that in the men’s toilet too.

What the OP's reaction shows is the degree to which women have been groomed by this movement to deprioritise their own real, important needs - for men's validation.

Because that is exactly what's happened.

OP, I understand this journey, I've been on it myself. Ultimately though if very liberal, 'live and let live' ideas have taken us to a place where are shamed for protecting our daughters, something's gone very wrong, hasn't it?

I only ever see the word “butch” on here. Whenever an opening post includes “butch”, it tells me all I need to know about the OP and their intention behind the post.