Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Sorry should have read 'yet more'

Of course you fear men. What woman doesn't, at least to some degree? There are a shit ton of violent men in this world, so fearing men in women's spaces just shows you have common sense and healthy protective instincts about your daughter.

Classic virtue signalling.

Not at all. You've not only been insulting, but you've been extolling your own alleged virtues non-stop.
It's quite a blatant display of what appears to be communal narcisissm.
You've also been saying you don't want to discuss it further, yet you keep on posting about it. So could you do everyone a favour and make good on your claims that you are done talking about this?

What is your idea of a transwoman?

Because I think you genuinely believe that once a man says he identifies as a woman, his cock suddenly drops off and he is thus harmless.

Are you aware that 92% of transwomen, according to medical data, retain their penis and testicles. If you have a COCK AND BALLS, you are not a woman. And have no place being in women and girls sacred safe single sex spaces. It really is that simple. A male in a dress with a cock and balls is a male. Not a female. Womens facilities are sex-based. Not gender 'identity' based.

That's what you're talking about here. To be crude, a male with his cock and nut sack. That's what you think is 'appropriate' in girls spaces. Because almost none of them have the op.

It is not 'appropriate' for a male with a cock and nutsack to be in a woman and girls sacred safe single SEX space. It really isn't. It isn't. It it is completely inappropriate, it is dangerous, and it nullifies the reasons those spaces exist in the first place: privacy, dignity, as well as safety.

I don't know how many times it's been said BUT as women we're trained to acquiesce however, we need to recognise and acknowledge our gut instinct. I have so many experiences of men invading my personal space and on being rebuffed turning aggressive - be it in language or other. One of the worst was at around 11 by an elderly neighbour and upon confiding this with my mother, many years later, she responded on how my late father would have been so upset - and you may wonder why I didn't kick off in the first place?! So it is generational and needs to be stopped. Please encourage your daughter to trust her instincts and not to be polite if she feels uncomfortable or threatened. It's beyond ridiculous how we are to encompass / embrace being politically correct.

Fuck. It is all coming out now.

“sour taste”

“I'm generous enough to do that.”

“rudeness.”

”unpleasant”

”bullying”

“I feel like I've just stepped on a slug barefoot actually.”

“polite and respectful”

“creeps me out”

”poor taste”

“bad manners”

”physically recoil”

“mean”

”spiteful”

“detestable”

”bad manners”

“gross”

“ashamed” (of your behaviour)

”cruel”

This is all an exercise in etiquette it seems.

You have created in your mind a sub group of male people to be exempted from safeguarding risk protocols based on feelings and what you believe is polite behaviour.

All based on a male person’s philosophical belief about themselves and their misogynistic view of what it means to be female. Meaning, you will accept female people being harmed through physical harm, emotional harm, self-exclusion, and more, all based on your need to be polite and to feel good about yourself.

Great post.

It only makes sense when you put it altogether.

To be a polite female human one must consider that the language around being female is allowed to be redefined in society because that helps sad male people. One must accept that if a male person says they are not feeling secure then all efforts are to be made by female people to make those male people feel secure, even to the detriment of other female people. Because remember, vulnerable gay men should be welcomed into the female single sex spaces for safety too.

At all times, female people must be kind, generous and well mannered to sad male people to make those male people feel better.

And all this is to be done in the face of the mounting evidence that no degree of transition removes either male testosterone derived advantage nor decreases male risk of committing crime or male pattern of crime.

I think it is very good to have this out in the open.

The thing is, apparently we are supposed to feel shame for treating all male people as male people. It is like the past where sub groups of male people were exempted from risk assessment processes never happened.

It isnt only that I fear a man in the woman's loos would assault me.

There are other issues. Until recently I had terrible flooding periods because of fibroids. Everytime I went out, I had to dash to the loo to check if I had stained my clothes. Sometimes I would flood with no warning. I went to an unisex loo once and it was terribly awkward, having to carry in my large handbag with pads. And then washing my messy hands afterwards in front of a young man.

Womens loos are full of women dealing with periods, breastfeeding leaks, bra straps, putting on makeup and all those things that make up a woman. Why should we have to do these in front of a man? As a young and pretty woman, DD feels exactly the same. The loo is a safe space for her to catch a break when out clubbing or partying.

“I'm satisfied that they're as good as a woman to all intents and purposes.”

And

“It's not that hard to call them women. It's only a word.”

I see these comments now in a way that I did not before.

I see them now as coming from a person who is contemptuous of women. Particularly contemptuous of women who refuse to centre male people.

Just work through it, OP. You had a visceral reaction which represents an underlying fear or prejudice, and nothing bad happened (of course!). All is good. You need to maybe examine your own intolerance, but ultimately you didn't outwardly react badly. Many people have a similar visceral reaction when confronted with the unknown - e.g. a race they are less familiar with. The important thing is to not justify your discomfort by pinning it on the other, rather than your own prejudices.

Honestly who cares

@Helleofabore @XChrome @CrochetForLife and others I may have missed; all my new heroines. I'm girlishly flirting and batting my eyelashes over my quickly whipped out, hand painted fan (battery operated John Lewis one works a treat if no Indian or Chinese bamboo ones to hand but doesn't give same 'frisson' when you whip it out plus hazardous if wearing false eyelashes) a la 'Gone with Wind stylie. Even my flounce away has been nicked so I'll just drop a teeny, teeny lace glove on my way to the loo in the hope some kind lady . . .
Ladies - I wonder how long this thread will last before a request to take down!

Women of another race in the loo are not the same as men. False equivalence.

I am a woman. I am not comfortable with a trans-woman coming into toilets, changing rooms, prison, female only wards and women's sports. I will self-exclude (where possible) rather than be in private space with a male.

Violence on females is conducted predominately by males, in private spaces and are sexual in nature. This plus the increase muscular and skeletal strength that males experience as a result of sexual dimorphism are the reasons that females need their own spaces.

Self-ID removes the safeguards for the wider population by not screening and challenging men on their motives and understanding on the risks that women experience when they are alone with men in a private space.

It is obvious that this person had a fear and a prejudice, it does not follow that those fears and prejudices are unfounded.

This constant comparison of trans and race has been creeping in recently when they are two different discussions.

As a brown woman I absolutely resent that I am now being compared to a man.🙄
Women have no reason to be afraid of women from another race. They have every reason to be wary of men.

“Just work through it, OP. You had a visceral reaction which represents an underlying fear or prejudice, and nothing bad happened (of course!). All is good. You need to maybe examine your own intolerance, but ultimately you didn't outwardly react badly. Many people have a similar visceral reaction when confronted with the unknown - e.g. a race they are less familiar with. The important thing is to not justify your discomfort by pinning it on the other, rather than your own prejudices.”

This post is one that is right up there with ‘women, reframe your trauma’ to accept rape counseling from a male person who wants you to believe that they are a female person.

As KateMiskin rightly points out using race here is a false equivalence.

Because people who have prejudiced views about people’s race in the UK do so from a position of illegitimate discrimination. And one that is not based on evidenced statistical risk.

Male people are legitimately discriminated against on the basis of their sex when they are excluded from female single sex spaces. This is based on historic statistical evidence that has remained unchanged over the time those statistics started being collected. And it was known for eons before.

People cannot be excluded legitimately from these spaces based on race. Because there is no evidence that one race carries more risk of causing harm to another race in the UK to warrant them being excluded from these spaces. That would be done only based on prejudice.

Framing safeguarding as prejudice is a tactic that has been well used by extreme transgender activists. And by extreme, I mean those who demand that gender is prioritised over the sex based needs of female people.

(Sorry!! MHWTSBTIFATPOLG people! Not female people. And certainly not WOMEN. )

Based on this logic, we should abandon all safeguarding in society. Because any attempt at safeguarding, using this logic, will be based on intolerance and prejudice.

Note: is MHWTSBTIFATPOLG catching on yet?

Effing 'ell @PicturePlace are you completely bonkers? How the F is that a comparison or are we having a 'Back to the Future' moment and you're really from the Deep South, USA circa 1900 or a Trump devotee? Bye, Ma'am / Karen / Felicia (tick whichever appropriate decade).

@TealTraybake
That article linked is frightening. That an intelligent woman could initially be so taken in, and to be arguing, "When asked to explain further, I resorted to circular reasoning". Surely she's now utterly ashamed at how stupid she was?

I would feel exactly the same. I would want to call them out, but doubt I would in case of reprisals. Our space- not their's.

How do you feel now @ScottishLottie OP? You now know you were right to feel the way you did re dd. And it's now questioned all your views on the trans issue, right at the base, and you now hopefully realise you were misguided, and wrong, at your 'live and let live, former viewpoint.