Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Oh i am sorry, glad they are working on the pain though….some of those pain killers can be very strong I’ve heard 💐

Exactly helleofabore

i was deffo on the ‘let them have woman’ side…it didn’t take long for me to realise how very wrong i was!

I have read it all to mean that some people get to dismiss the needs of female people collectively so that they get to be kind to their friends. Meanwhile, others will campaign and work to protect the female people that those who get to be kind leave exposed and vulnerable to potential physical harm, and likely distress and other harm. But that is ok, because some people don’t see the needs of female people, or don’t see them as the priority.

Yes, they're very strong. I've already had an incident with them a few days ago where I needed an ambulance. I posted a thread about it at the time if you're feeling nosy 😊

But apart from that, I'm finally feeling a bit more optimistic about life. It's such a relief to not have pain niggling at me after such a long time of it.

Thanks for asking after me. That's really sweet of you.

These male people have been telling us loudly for years that they are ‘female’. This is usually ignored because all the questions and discussion is kept on the word woman.

Remember that even ‘cis women’ also include male people. So, there is nothing. Because people are happy to give sad male people things to cheer them up.

Horrified that males make women uncomfortable when they come across them in a female only space?

Blimey!!! Quick everyone call the rozzers again, we are horrifying male people again!!!

We really need to stop horrifying men! It is not seemly.

Disobedient women.

Disobedient MHWTSBTIFATPOLG, you mean! Get the terminology right, Eresh. You could be talking negatively about male people who need to be kindly treated in your use of woman.

Considering how many of UK’s universities already have male people as ‘Women’s officers’, I expect that the issue is already written into policies and will need significant effort to put back to single sex space policies and having female people (sorry MHWTSBTIFATPOLG) represented by MHWTSBTIFATPOLG.

Because the word ‘women’ in women’s officer is meaningless. Just like some sex balanced boards ended up with around 75% male people. Because 50% of the ‘women’ were male.

Because the word woman is ‘just a word’. Apparently.

Me and DP both recently used a hotel toilet that was open to the general public of any sex. About 8 stalls. No one else was there and obviously fine as it’s the partner. But it did strike me that if I’d been in there on my own with a stranger who was a man, I would have been nervous. I didn’t really think at the time about how I’d feel if it was an obviously transgender man. Maybe equally, or more or less nervous, but it wouldn’t be nothing. I don’t think you need to feel bad about how you felt - for most of your life you’ve known there to be separate toilets for M / F sexes. That doesn’t just get undone in a few years because some people want it to.

But fortunately some of us will - and do! I confronted a boy (he was obviously a boy) when he snuck into a cubicle once. "The Gents is closed", he said.
"Well this is open for Ladies", I said, "if you're really desperate and NEED to use it [considering the boys I've seen using corners or alleyways I don't know what would constitute "need"], then knock loudly, announce yourself, and ASK".

I’m sorry, but your response doesn’t make sense at all. And it doesn’t answer my question.

It’s not a matter of perception, it’s a matter of fact and truth. A trans woman is male. Otherwise, they would not be a trans woman, would they? They would just be a woman. A cis woman, if you must (this is not a term I use or accept, I use it merely to ensure my meaning is plain to you).

As you’ve been told on this thread, the evidence demonstrates that trans identified males do not pose less of a threat to women than non-trans identified males. So your confident assertion that a trans woman peeing next to you is not going to hurt you is based on nothing more than assumption and emotion on your part. The evidence shows that statistically you will be more at risk than if you were peeing next to a female. No matter how you feel, this is fact and can be backed up by evidence.

So why are you ignoring the evidence that allowing males in women’s safe spaces puts us at risk? Or is it that it doesn’t matter to you if attacks on women go up as a result? It has to be one or the other, so which is it?

Do you care about the feelings of women who are scared to be in toilets and changing rooms with males, however they dress or identify? Do you empathise with them? Would you be keen for those women to be less distressed and able to go out freely in public? How do you feel about women staying away from swimming pools or public loos where males are allowed in? Are you ok with women’s lives being curtailed in this way? If so, why? Why are you comfortable with that?

Most of all, what makes you elevate the feelings of males to the point you feel they should be prioritised over those of women? Do you see those trans women (who are male) as more important than females? If so, why? And what’s in it for you in doing so?

I'm not ok with trans womens lives being curtailed and considered less important than women's.

We're all just human at the end of the day.

But no, I don't intend to get into a big debate with anyone about this. You've got your view and I have mine. Unfortunately, you'll have to accept that they don't align on some things.

But no, I don't intend to get into a big debate with anyone about this. You've got your view and I have mine. Unfortunately, you'll have to accept that they don't align on some things.

Unfortunately you'll have to accept that people will keep saying why your ideas don't work for most women.

How's what you're doing working out for you?

Fine thanks!

Im extraordinarily proud of what the feminist women in the UK and elsewhere, many here on Mumsnet, have achieved when the odds were stacked against us.

As you said, @PaillettenBedeckt it's good that there are strong women fighting for women's rights, and a place where they can discuss things like this. I obviously agree with you there.

I'm all for strong women! I was brought up in a matriarchy myself and it did me a lot of good. The women in my family are real battle axes.

But as it stands, trans women are allowed in the toilet so whatever you're doing clearly isn't preventing that.

But as it stands, trans women are allowed in the toilet so whatever you're doing clearly isn't preventing that.

All men are allowed in women's toilets. It's not governed by the law. It's a social contract. Most women don't want men in women's toilets, so hopefully in future that will be listened to more than it currently is and the social contract will be restored. It's not really on for males and their female supporters not to listen to what most women want, don't you think?

Anyway, off to bed now. If you're engaging in a discussion I will happily pick up where we left off tomorrow.

I certainly don't know any women in real life who are vehemently opposed to trans women like I read on MN. So I do take what I read on the internet, particularly on a forum like this where you're all egging each other and also refusing to listen to contrarary viewpoints, with a large pinch of salt.

I hear what you're saying and I see the value in it though.