Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

That is a very normal reaction. I work in a hotel out of town and went in the wing where there was no one else working. The hotel stank of alcohol nights being spent in there. A guy was in the corridor right where my job room was and was looking out of the window. I mentioned that I am cleaning that room and he did not move from his place. I was wearing alarm with me and knew that I won't need to use it but tbh, had a weird feeling

Indeed.

We clarify what words mean when we write law. If we don't have this universal understanding, then the law falls apart and injustice happens.

Hard to describe, a wing with a corridor which has a windows on one side and the rooms on the other. He was just across the door where I went in to work

This!!

I get you @somereallyniceadvice it can be very intimidating when you find yourself alone with a man and know you are vulnerable.

Women need to trust their gut.

The last time I had a bad feeling about a man, he turned out to be a serial abuser, with a long history of horrible behaviour against women.

It's not like abusive men are some rare beast, is it.

What I started observing going to public places with toilets is that the women toilets entering doors are wide open and the men are closed. Was thinking is this the reason of this new practice? So we are more secure that we are not alone in hidden area or was it only me who started noticing this?

Because we need a third space.

PaillettenBedeckt Whilst I understand that you are happy to share the toilets with strange males/transwomen do you understand that other women do not consent? Do you understand that consent is not transferable?
Your consent is only for you, other women (including many with great vulnerabilities)do not consent & surely you would stand with these women & insist on single sex spaces to allow them to participate in society?

Transwomen are not a vulnerable group in the U.K. & are free to use unisex/mixed sex/male toilets.

FWIW I have a lovely gay male friend who has been badly (hospitalised) beaten by homophobic bastards in men's toilets. He's very friendly & quite slightly built. Would you welcome him into women's spaces too?

Yep definitely something up with the post

FWIW I have a lovely gay male friend who has been badly (hospitalised) beaten by homophobic bastards in men's toilets. He's very friendly & quite slightly built. Would you welcome him into women's spaces too?

Yeah, probably. I don't see the harm. I certainly wouldn't have a menty b if I saw him in the toilets. It wouldn't be particularly unusual in the kind of places I hang out.

I get that we all have different opinions on it. But why should yours trump everyone else's either? You've no more right to decide what all women should be for and against than I do.

But why should yours trump everyone else's either?

It's not "everyone else's" though is it? Most women prefer female only spaces when they are undressing or vulnerable.

Ok thanks so you basically think all toilets should be mixed sex. That's fair enough (obviously I don't agree - because single sex spaces are safer for women & girls).

Are there any places you do think should be single sex? Changing rooms, prisons, intimate care etc etc?

It's not about different opinions. It's about consent. Women who do not consent to get undressed in a space with men should not be forced to because some other women do consent. I & many many other women do not consent to changing with /sharing toilets with men. You do which is your right. I'm saying that your desire to consent to making single sex spaces mixed sex can't be transferred to others.

i have no desire to declare what all women should be for or against, that would be weird as we're half the population of the world & have a vast variety of views/experiences!

You keep engaging

lost a bit from my post 🤦🏻‍♀️

I know my friend is lovely & not a danger or pervert but I would never take him into the women's toilets with me because the other women in that space did not consent & could be uncomfortable/scared.

Genuine question, because I can never get my head around this when women are keen for transwomen to be in women's safe spaces, eg toilets:

When you read/hear women who've been abused or raped tell you how afraid they are of finding males in women's changing rooms and toilets, because they fear for their safety, and when you are told the statistics that show women ARE more vulnerable to attack in mixed sex spaces, why do you discount this and give it lower priority than the feelings of males who wish to be in these female spaces? Why are the males' feelings more important to you than women's feelings or their safety?

I think I'm a little doolally on painkillers though so fuck it

oh goodness…hope you are ok!

No one's identity should 'trump' anyone else's when it comes to identity.

Thats the point.

There has to be a balancing act.

You can't do that if you say that males are women because that is trumping!

The only way you don't do that, is by a third way. Which isn't acceptable to a huge number of transpeople because they desire validation. But validation isn't possible, because you can't actually change sex and this reality remains and is relevant to a lot of situations.

We can't 'be nice about it' because its unworkable, without it doing various types of harms. We may WANT to be nice about it, but its just not compatible with safeguarding and existing rights. The world is not nice.

When we talk about human rights there is a hierachy when we do balancing: The thing we do first and foremost is act to prevent physical harms to another group. This means women's right to protection remains very central to how we balance - it is the central pillar. We can talk about protectioning trans people, but we have to also make sure women are protected. This means that it is not feasible for males to share certain spaces with females without the risk of physical harms. And actually failure to recognise sex puts transpeople themselves at risk, particularly the most vulnerable cases.

Validating identity comes some way down the considerations list we should be looking at.

When you read/hear women who've been abused or raped tell you how afraid they are of finding males in women's changing rooms and toilets, because they fear for their safety, and when you are told the statistics that show women ARE more vulnerable to attack in mixed sex spaces, why do you discount this and give it lower priority than the feelings of males who wish to be in these female spaces? Why are the males' feelings more important to you than women's feelings or their safety?

This is my question too. I have a friend who was violently raped and the presence of a man in the female toilets would be horrendously triggering for her. Does she matter less than these men? Why?

“But why should yours trump everyone else's either?”

Because they are female spaces. It is not my “opinion”, it is the majority view of the users of the spaces you are giving away. I mean, the first male people, the doctors, who told other male people that they should use female single sex spaces were simply misogynists. But you have assured us that you are not. So how would you describe someone who chooses to ignore the needs of female people to prioritise male people?

What makes you think I don't fear for my safety around men? What makes you think I haven't been in dangerous situations or been abused and attacked by men?

Of course I do. But we have a different perception of what a man is with what you're describing. I don't have a problem with a trans woman who is going about her day having a wee in the cubicle next to me. I've done it before and I'll do it again. She's not going to hurt me.

That's my own personal view on it. But as I said at the beginning of the thread, I'm not the toilet police and I'm not in charge of who goes in what toilet. So my opinion on this has no impact on your life whatsoever.

An interesting view. I’d like to ask what you mean by “ as good as a woman to all intents and purposes”.

So they could have breasts, but statistically no vagina definitely np uterus, Fallopian tubes, ovaries. Testosterone will be far higher than in a woman. Probably taller, have different body hair, facial feature, an Adam’s apple ,a penis. So when it comes to physical intents and purposes they are not women.

They don’t experience menstruation, pmt, pregnancy,menopause, though they do go through male puberty, so in terms of life event intents and purposes they are not women.

They don’t by and large experience ,often from a very early age, cat calling, verbal sexual harassment, inappropriate touching, sexual assault, rape or domestic violence, so another area where male and female intents and purposes are different.

I am struggling a bit to find which “intents and purposes” women and transwomen actually have common ground apart from the obvious ones they are human mammals, so hope you can help me out.

Oh thank you! I'm ok. I've got a few chronic health conditions and the GP recently put me on some new painkillers. They're helping, but they make me feel a little away with the fairies when they kick in.

So, do the people who think woman is ‘just a word’ and perfectly fine to allow anyone to use it if they wish to, understand that female has also been acquired and now defines both male and female too?

What word can we use in policy and law to mean the mature humans with the sexed body that is formed around the production of large gametes?

Because I am rather confused now, aren’t they all ‘just words’? Or is the idea that there is now never a need to refer to the mature humans with the sexed body that is formed around the production of large gametes? (MHWTSBTIFATPOLG - does that work?)