Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

I'll continue to post as I see fit @PaillettenBedeckt but thanks for your concern.

They weren't ever going to listen in the first place in most cases.

You assume that it's ever about convincing the person you are arguing with.

It's always about getting other people reading to think and ask questions and decide whether what they are told sufficiently makes the case for why we should go against what we see and our instincts.

I expect that is why he has won an award for being one of eight incredible Canadian Women. I mean, when you are that amazing it is a bit like being an Angel, no one cares what happens under your robes, they just want to know how many of you can dance on the head of a pin and if you can get your eyeliner straight.

It's always about getting other people reading to think and ask questions and decide whether what they are told sufficiently makes the case for why we should go against what we see and our instincts.

Indeed.

@PaillettenBedeckt i just don’t understand why you won’t back up your conclusions?

You are entitled to believe what you want but if you are not prepared to back it up then the upshot is that we feel that your conclusion harms women and girls you can’t really blame us for that when you won’t even give us your reasoning.

it’s just odd , if you really disagree with a viewpoint for something other than ideological reasons surely you would be able to justify your thought process 🙄

I used to use men’s toilets in clubs and bars because there was never a queue, unlike the ladies. A bouncer told me I was leaving myself really vulnerable to an assault and I shouldn’t do that. I was young, cocky and confident and had never considered that as a lone female entering an enclosed space with men I was vulnerable but I stopped after that warning. I guess this is the same in reverse.

Can I suggest then that if you don’t intend to ‘silence’ people please don’t use language meant to shame others. Including saying that the feminism board is an ‘echo chamber’.

Because whether it was your intention or not, posting shaming posts does silence others. It matters fuck all what your intention is, if you post to shame others for their opinions, including calling the place they post derogatory names, you actively silence them.

You had entirely the appropriate reaction . We as women know that men pose a risk to us, especially unknown men in spaces where we are vulnerable and/or undertaking intimate care. A man wearing a dress will not change the fact that you are instinctively able to recognise him as a man, and therefore a potential threat.
He should not have used the women's facilities. You're not the first woman to be "live and let live" until you experience a trans woman in your personal space and feel those very real feelings of discomfort or threat.

It's always about getting other people reading to think and ask questions

I agree with you on this. But I'm not convinced that people were never going to agree with you.

I actually do agree with quite a lot of what you have to say on this subject. I have heard some things on the other side of this debate that frankly sound like absolute horseshit. I've rolled my eyes many a time!

I very much appreciate that there are strong women on here. I am all for strong women who will stand up for what they think is right.

That doesn't mean I want to risk trying to discuss the nuance on here and end up getting called names and accused of all sorts because I can't agree with everything in toto.

Sort of similar experience at the theatre, but with my 3 year old daughter, having been to a children's production. There was a regional trans meet up also in the venue. I felt annoyed at half the men dressed as Japanese school girls clutching teddy bears in the bar (the female gender or children are not to be fetishized in my book). My daughter needed the toilet, so I took her into the ladies. It was the usual set up, clearly designed by men, with no room for a mother and child to fit in the same cubicle and my daughter needed help so I had to have the cubicle door open a bit. She had just entered the cubicle when in walked 3 or 4 tall blokes dressed in mini skirts. My daughter suddenly refused to go when she heard their voices and wanted to leave immediately. We had intended to go for ice-cream afterwards, but had to go home so that she could use the loo. That's when I totally changed my stance. I would have confronted them, but didn't wish to upset my daughter. I felt furious. Sorry, but women and children are not there as some sort of emotionless props to validate men. I went to a different theatre the other day and the gender neutral toilet was on the ground floor, but the ladies was 2 stories up.

I also had a heated debate with my husband the other day because he was being all 'right on' about a trans 'woman' in his office, whom he insisted felt uncomfortable and apologetic for using the ladies and wasn't entitled at all. He works in a very male dominated environment and they had agreed that 'she' should use the ladies if she wished and they would support her. I had to remind him firmly that it was absolutely not his place or that of any other men to give away the rights of women, especially when it didn't impact them! I was followed into the toilets by a male cleaner at work years ago and assaulted (he tried to pin me up against the wall and kiss me, whilst blocking exit). This had slipped his mind because as a man, toilets do not seem as a dangerous place). They are incapable of empathising with or relating to women because they are men and are lacking women's experience.

And the reverse is true.

You probably won't convince me any differently. That is correct.

But there is a good opportunity here to set out the counter arguments for third parties to consider and make up their own minds.

I see the lack of interest in trying as something as a lack of conviction tbh. You don't believe enough that your argument will stand up well.

It's a belief. I get that. It's not tangible.

It's like trying to argue that God exists and give evidence for it. But expecting everyone to adhere to rules based on God existing.

It makes it deeply problematic.

I agree @RedToothBrush

Not at all. I consider myself to be pretty robust in a debate and I'm not without some intelligence.

But sometimes I do need to use that intelligence to work out when I'm on a hiding to nothing.

Probably like now, because I've repeated myself for quite a while now. Now I'm getting into a debate about not having a debate instead. Oops. 😁

The reason why you feel bad and guilty for feeling this way is because the transgender sector, their naive teenage followers and other men have fed you the lies that if you don't feel ok with feeling safe in what should be a safe place, then you are a far right evil bigot. You've been told very forcefully to ignore and suppress your instinct to keep safe. And you've somehow bought into these threats or been brain washed.

It's one thing to wear a miniskirt, make up, call yourself Ruby Stardust and insist you are referred to as being a woman (generally it doesn't affect most of our rights). But when something impinges upon our rights and takes something away from us (our fundamental feeling of safety), then suddenly it feels very very different.

I'm so sorry. For your DD being intimidated, and your day being spoiled, and for the man who assaulted you.

It's normal to want to protect your children from any perceived danger - whether it's a dangerous animal or a transvestite.

No matter what HE was wearing, HE was still a potential threat.

I will say one thing, against my better judgement. I don't agree that we should treat trans women like men. I don't think that's fair.

I know there's some rubbish out there, like some trans women claiming they are having their period. What a load of absolute tosh. What on earth do they know about what it's like to have a period? And stuff like 'uterus havers' is just ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with the word woman.

Equally, I don't like deliberately calling trans women men out of spite or to make a point. It's not that hard to call them women. It's only a word. It doesn't change who anyone is at a fundamental level.

But no, sending all trans women into the men's toilet I don't like. It's cruel and it's impractical.

My gavel is banged.

I will say one thing, against my better judgement. I don't agree that we should treat trans women like men. I don't think that's fair.

they are men though - 100% men.

I will say one thing, against my better judgement. I don't agree that we should treat trans women like men. I don't think that's fair.

they are men though - 100% men.

It's relevant though.

We had this same dynamic before during Brexit. It was a rational reasoned argument versus belief.

I actually desperately wanted to understand what was driving it (and there were valid things going on but attributed to the wrong things which are starting to be now apparent as not remotely down to the EU and people do understand better all round).

I would actually like to get some of these ideas and concepts. Even if I disagree.

Within a society though we do need workable ways of doing things which don't led to the collapse of the good things we have and want to continue.

That's where I think things fall down even if you believe in transwomen are women. In practice this has a massive negative impact on women in various ways. And these problems need addressing.

Safeguarding is the Irish Border Question for Transactivism. Women's sport is the Customs Union question for Transactivism.

We can't just shy away from these questions because people raising them are 'too up themselves or too full of their intellectual egos'. Because the questions still exist without the people raising them.

We need to address how things are working for women or not working for women if sex is replaced by gender.

I don't think these are remotely unreasonable to ask. And expect decent answers to.

But feeding a man's delusion is not right either, you know the same as me and everyone else that no one can change sex, that is a fact.
So why is not calling a man a woman unfair to you?
Feeding into delusions and validating fetishes is absolutely not the right thing to do.
Telling women they have to ignore their feelings to make men feel better is not fair to women.

I've edited twice now but my keyboard and brain are playing up, but you get what i'm trying to say!

Exactly.
It was fought for in order for women to have safe spaces. This is not a given.
I’m not prepared to give up single sex spaces.

"Equally, I don't like deliberately calling trans women men out of spite or to make a point. It's not that hard to call them women. It's only a word. It doesn't change who anyone is at a fundamental level."

It is not just 'a word'.

It is a word that up until recently was unique for an adult human female.

It has only changed in 'some' people's opinion. And the reason it now includes male people is only because those male people hold a philosophical belief that they are female.

People who are supporting that everyone use demanded preferred language out of compassion are missing the point. The ONLY commonality between male people with transgender identities is that they hold that belief. It is not related to any medical condition as per Dr Crispi below.

"We’re still categorising being transgender as a medical problem, which it is not.". says Dr Vassili Crispi (he/they), an academic neurosurgery trainee who sits on the British Medical Association (BMA) UK Council, and who is part of the doctors’ union’s new LGBTQ+ network.

So, why is anyone trying to demand that we all indulge a male person's philosophical belief?

Here how the harm in using 'woman' for any male works:

_

https://news.sky.com/story/trans-cyclist-rachel-mckinnon-defends-her-right-to-race-in-womens-competitions-11838131

Trans cyclist Rachel McKinnon defends her right to race in women's competitions

By Martha Kelner
Sunday 20 October 2019

Trans athlete McKinnon will race to defend her sprint title at the Masters track cycling championships in Manchester on Saturday.

And then

"All my medical records say female," she said. "My doctor treats me as a female person, my racing licence says female, but people who oppose my existence still want to think of me as male."

"There's a stereotype that men are always stronger than women, so people think there is an unfair advantage. By preventing trans women from competing or requiring them to take medication, you're denying their human rights."

Asked if she accepted it is possible that transgender women retained a physical advantage over cis female competitors (the term used to describe someone who identifies as the same gender they were assigned at birth), McKinnon replied: "Is it possible? Yes it is possible. But there are elite track cyclists who are bigger than me."

"There is a range of body sizes and strength, you can be successful with massively different body shapes. To take a British example, look at Victoria Pendleton, an Olympic champion with teeny tiny legs."

"In many Olympic disciplines the gap in performance is bigger between first and eighth in a single sex event than it is between the first man and the first woman."

and then

It is one of the most politically charged and sensitive issues around - but asked whether trans inclusion was more important than retaining a category for women in sport, McKinnon replied: "I think what your asking me is, 'Is it more important that trans people are included, than it is to retain fairness in sport?'

"My point is that trans inclusion is fairness, it is unfair to exclude trans women. This is much bigger than sport, it's a proxy for all of trans inclusion in society. Talk of bathrooms has switched into sport by people who don't care about sport."

In the video, McKinnon says "if you think that transwomen are men are men, then you think that there is an unfair advantage."

and my point about the pronouns comes from this quote:

at around 37 seconds into the video: "We care about sport, it is central to society. If you want to say, 'well, I believe you're a woman for all of society, except this massive central part that is sport, then, that is not fair. Fairness is the inclusion of transwomen."

Outside of the US you will need a VPN to watch this clip.

TLDR: Male transgender activists use the emotionally manipulative argument that because individually some people use their preferred language that society believes they are 'female'. Therefore, because of this language usage, all of society should treat them as if they are female.

No exceptions.

The damage is already done. The harm is already evident.

Equally, I don't like deliberately calling trans women men out of spite or to make a point. It's not that hard to call them women. It's only a word. It doesn't change who anyone is at a fundamental level.

Thanks for your view but no, that doesn't work for me. You can bang your gavel all you like, it doesn't make men women and I'm not prepared to lie that I think they are.