Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Transphobe! (Sorry!)

More seriously that's not necessarily what a lot of posters think or feel. Even some of the more hardliners would compromise with a third way I'm fairly sure, based on reading what people have said over the years.

The problem isn't women on this.

Being asked to take the third way is treated with contempt by a sizeable number of transwomen. And that's why women point out it's not about wanted to pee it's about the use of women to validate.

A women's toilet without the women becomes a toilet.

Its frustrating because for stuff like domestic violence and shelters trans women have unique issues which do perhaps differ from both men and women and a third space would be better equipped to deal with issue if it were handled like that.

The problem is about sex being replaced with gender and the impact of that. Not whether people hate trans people. These two points are conflated together. MN is framed as hating transpeople. It doesnt.

Being pro-woman is not anti-trans and it's time this started to be recognised because this is another core issue.

I will say one thing, against my better judgement. I don't agree that we should treat trans women like men. I don't think that's fair.

How are you defining 'transwomen'?

I used to call trans women women , then it became clear that doing this harms women and girls. So now I call them what they are which is men.

The hurt feelings of men matters less to me than fairness, safety and dignity for women and girls. Especially when those men can see that their activism is harming us.

I used to call trans women women , then it became clear that doing this harms women and girls. So now I call them what they are which is men.

The hurt feelings of men matters less to me than fairness, safety and dignity for women and girls. Especially when those men can see that their activism is harming us.

100%. It's been so liberating not to participate in gaslighting myself or others.

To be honest, I don't want people to 'listen to me'. I want them to look at the evidence, and think.

Oh wow. I mean, I asked a question and then worked for the rest of the day, so thank you to everyone who has put forward a view, opinion or advice.

I haven't read through them all yet, but am pleased to see that there are some really balanced and articulate views that have certainly given me a lot to think about and have also helped rationalise why I was feeling guilty & ashamed of myself.

I'm going to educate myself more on this topic as I clearly don't believe what I thought I believed (at its basest level) so that's not only a bit of a surprise but something that I want to make more sense of.

And I want to reassure the tiny handful of posters who implied that I'd 'failed' my daughter by not following her in, that there were a lot of other women about (they'd been queueing out of the door until a minute before my DD and friend went in,) and having clocked how I was feeling, I did indeed go in and wash my hands until they were both in sight.

Thank you everyone

OF CATS AND MEN AND LITTER TRAYS

My cat is very much a boy,
despite the loss of balls.
He acts just like a boy cat would
when a female caterwauls.
He still scratches, and he hisses,
always tries to dominate,
despite the awful screams
that from the female emanate.
The female is no match for him,
despite his lack of skill,
if he chooses to, he can do,
and the female outright kill.

So if a cat can act just like a cat,
despite the loss of function,
why would we dare to presume a man
wouldn’t have the self-same gumption?

It’s not just the actual act,
but the fact it could occur.
Their very presence in our space
would lead us to infer
that a man is there for some misdeed,
as that has always been the way.
We go one way to the Ladies,
the men turn, and go the other way.

And as we don’t do genital inspections,
what would you suggest we do?
The easiest way to solve this issue…
KEEP ALL MALES OUT OF OUR LOO.

Boiledbeetle 7th June 2023 

Yes, exactly @ArabellaScott - most people if they are honest with themselves and fair-minded and don't have a personal reason to support males being able to access women's spaces look at the evidence and sooner or later come to the conclusion that women (who are exclusively female) need single sex spaces to be single sex.

The idea that intact male people should feel free to access women only spaces is a fairly unpopular one across all sectors of society.

Transphobe!

Haha! Yeah, I do get that's part of the issue here. I would get called a transphobe for saying stuff like that. I don't think they're women any more than you do. So I can see why you're protective over a space where you can say those things. I must admit, it is rather refreshing.

To me, they're not men though. Not every single one anyway. I do see the odd one and I think who are you trying to kid, you're a man in a dress. But genuinely most of them I feel happy to say to them, welcome to the club. I mean, ok they'll never be biologically women but I'm fine with that. If that's what they say they feel inside, who am I to question it.

Ultimately, I'm just glad I was born a woman and I'm happy being one. It sounds like a hard life thinking you've been born in the wrong body. I sympathise.

I said I wouldn't talk about this! I think I'm a little doolally on painkillers though so fuck it. Do your worst!

I used a public loo a few months ago and was not prepared for how I felt when I saw a man walk in and then walk into a cubicle. It was upsetting. It was a male who looked and dressed male in every way, not a transgender person. Of course there's the possibility of a transman but I think that's unlikely as they would use surely use the men's.

I had to go and check the door as I thought maybe I'd gone into the gents by mistake.

I don't know if the men's was closed for cleaning or something (not an excuse to go in the ladies!) , but it felt so wrong for a male to just walk into the ladies like that.

How are some men women? What does a transwoman share with a woman that he doesn't share with other men?

To me, they're not men though. Not every single one anyway.

They are to me. Every single one. And yes I do question what they say, no one should accept everything anyone says without question.

Your daughter WAS in a vulnerable situation. There was a male who made a point of following girls into a female only space. Most men don't do that. Respect your own instincts. Don't allow men to reshape them. Who benefits? Not women. Put women and girls first. Most men don't want to pee beside vulnerable girls.. Please look up Autogynephilia for your daughter's sake.

I don't know if the men's was closed for cleaning or something (not an excuse to go in the ladies!) , but it felt so wrong for a male to just walk into the ladies like that.

I think a lot of men feel quite emboldened that they don't think women will say anything.

I think that we are given a bad press more than we deserve tbh.

I do think we are and can be more reasonable and do listen more than we are given credit. Mainly because it helps us develop our own arguments.

I think where it starts to get more heated is when we get frustrated at responses which frame us as bigoted rather than really wanting answers to things that are really important to us as women.

It feels like an anti-woman movement for a variety of reasons. It has been marked by a lots of attempts to disempower women and to remove them from the consultation and consensus building processes.

It feels like an anti-woman movement for a variety of reasons. It has been marked by a lots of attempts to disempower women and to remove them from the consultation and consensus building processes.

Exactly. The lack of consideration for women's feelings and needs is quite breathtaking.

I mean, I do share concerns about transwomen in female sport. But I'm not sure why some posters here get so enervated about being called transphobic when they very clearly are. Just own it.

Not "transphobic" at all. Live and let live. Just don't want men in women's spaces, for the reasons so eloquently and repeatedly given here.

I'm proud of you, MNers. Well done!

It's not "just a word" though is it? Humans rely on words to conceptualise and categorise everything in existence... you're taking a word, used to define a biological class of adult human, and yet that word in your mind should similarly apply to anyone who decides they are one, irrespective of their biology. What about the words that lean on from that word then... "mum" "aunt" "sister" "grandmother"... all words pertaining to things that only women can be or do become utterly meaningless if they are to be equally applied to men who simply say they are a woman. The word ceases to hold any meaning.

It feels like an anti-woman movement for a variety of reasons

I get that must be really frustrating.

There definitely is a lot of silencing going on out there. There's a big obsession with having to say the 'right' thing, which only exacerbates the bubbling resentment on forums like this. Although that issue extends beyond this particular debate.

The internet has brought its fair share of trouble into this issue.

To me, they're not men though. Not every single one anyway. I do see the odd one and I think who are you trying to kid, you're a man in a dress. But genuinely most of them I feel happy to say to them, welcome to the club. I mean, ok they'll never be biologically women but I'm fine with that. If that's what they say they feel inside, who am I to question it.

They are men though. You know that's true. Why do you think 'what they feel inside' trumps scientific reality? Do you think that about any other physical characteristics - like height, eye colour, age, race, skin cour, disability? I doubt it. So why different rules for this?

It sounds like a hard life thinking you've been born in the wrong body. I sympathise.

What does this even mean though? You ARE your body. How can it be 'wrong'? How did this occur? Which bits of the body are 'wrong' and which are 'right'? How could a man know that what they 'feel' is at a woman feels? Surely you can see the issues with this statement?

No, thanks. Inaccurate. Just want women's rights.

But I'm not sure why some posters here get so enervated about being called transphobic when they very clearly are. Just own it.

Oh I'll own it. All it means nowadays is having respect for basic scientific facts.

OP just look at the rates of violent and sexual offending for men vs women. Trans women's offending follows the male pattern, and some limited statistics, already mentioned up thread, suggest it is worse.

Have you followed recent news on how many ordinary men were willing to rape an unconscious woman when they thought they were safe from consequences?

Trans women are men who reduce womanhood to props they insist on claiming, and who insist on being in spaces where women are vulnerable. Your reaction on behalf of your daughter was entirely appropriate.