Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

What conclusions?

The only conclusion I can draw from that is that aren't debating not because you think it's pointless and an echo chamber, but because you haven't got answers to difficult complex questions.

These are complex issues that deserve so much more than mantras and slogans.

It does deserve paragraphs and paragraphs.

That's part of the point. Reductionism means we miss huge very important issues.

I assume the conclusion is that @PaillettenBedeckt has reached is that whilst women have some valid objections , men’s wishes should override those objections.

I’d be very interested in how that conclusion has been reached.

I agree. Why isn’t it enough?

I too have always had heavy flooding periods. And I thought this was normal until I started reading posts on MN where some posters actually told others that they never experienced flooding and had no idea what this meant.

It is remarkable, isn’t it?

That some women don’t share this experience so are very quick to give away access to toilets because they have no fucking idea!

I mean, the couple of times my milk exploded at my workplace would have been enough to shock me out of my privileged zone if I had also never experienced the flooding most of my post pubertal life until pregnancy.

Oh. Then there was the vomiting in the toilets due to morning sickness. But apparently… we fucking just want to pee.

Plus these are NOT conclusions. These are questions we need to explore and find answers to rather than just blindly accepting mantras and a one size fits all mentality.

. . . and also for those same people to target their efforts towards educating men to 'being kind' to other men in their toilets - however they wish to present themselves.

Why aren't men being targeted for all this 're-education' to keep men who wear women's clothes safe?

Why is the 'be kind' being targeted at women and children FFS?

Oh, hang on - because that would then create a barrier between AGP's and their fetishes? The coin is really dropping for me.

It feels as though women and children are being groomed en-masse to accept this!

Well WE WONT!

Is anyone actually ‘debating’?

I thought we were using posts for discussion points so others can see how points either stand strong or fail due to weakness.

I have not seen any actively engaged posters posting evidence to support their own decisions to support male people accessing female single sex spaces . All I have seen is emotional reasoning and manipulation.

Including that poster who declared that OP and other female people need to work at getting over their discomfort of male people being in female single sex spaces.

I've already made it perfectly clear why I won't get into debates on this subject. This thread was clearly started to stir up trouble and I don't intend to be goaded into a long and pointless debate with people who are never going to agree with me. And to boot, will become unpleasant when they realise that.

I've already been accused of being some weird malevolent board stalker, called misogynistic, called passive aggressive pet names, and accused of wanting to silence women. I don't want to silence anyone. I'd like you to listen. But if you won't listen, I don't intend to waste my time trying to talk about this.

I've said how I feel on the subject. If that's not your position on the matter, fair enough. There are plenty of women waiting to applaud you for your views so don't stress yourself about what little old me thinks.

Don't worry I'm not stressing.

I've just seen the same pattern of disruption.

Don't you think we should be having conversations about difficult subjects to reassure and resolve problems when people have huge issues and concerns? Regardless of what your personal view is?

Why did you and do you seek to close down this one?

Because it's controversial?

a long and pointless debate with people who are never going to agree with me

I always thought discussion and debate needed to be long, calm, respectful and considered in order to reach an agreed consensus of the majority.
Not to be badgered into agreeing with a small but loud minority (that would be pointless).

I suspect that's because most people know better than to come on this thread and debate it with you.

It would help if they actually had a decent argument they could actually back up.

That's kinda my problem.

We don't ever get past 'dont be mean' or 'because I say so' except a tiny number of times.

I'd actually like to.

It's an unfortunate case of 'but no-one's listening to MEEEEE' isn't it @PaillettenBedeckt ?

People have heard you but perhaps the majority of people don't agree. Sometimes you just need to accept that.

Yes, I’d love to know why some people think that men’s feelings override women’s safety.

I'm sorry to all women who have suffered like us💐
It is a horrible experience, standing up in public and seeing a pool of your own blood, then trying to clean it up and then trying to sort yourself out in a stinking public toilet, it's embarrassing, I know it shouldn't be, but it is, it's embarrassing and upsetting, especially when you feel so drained and faint from the heavy bleeding.
It's just one of many reasons to keep our spaces single sex. All the women who say well I don't have a problem with it, I say good for you, but you don't get to decide that for me or anyone else, we deserve our privacy and dignity.

This is the problem isn’t it! For this reaction you would be labelled a TERF by many people. But you’re not anti-trans in any sense, you’re very happy for everyone to go on out and live their beautiful lives and be happy - with their differences adding to society’s diversity. BUT you still understand that women’s spaces need to be safe and only for biological women, ie the rights of a minority group shouldn’t infringe the safety and comfort of all women.

We don't ever get past 'dont be mean' or 'because I say so' except a tiny number of times.

I'd actually like to.

Yes, so would I.

I've said several times that I accept that other people don't agree with me.

You're your own worst enemies here. I'm sorry that I'm having to tell you this and I wish it wasn't the case; you are approaching this in such a way as to make people not want to engage with you.

If you truly believe that the only reason no one will debate this with you is because they're too stupid to be able to compete with the big brains, that's one of your problems right there.

Are you here to gaslight yourself into believing that you have some kind of anti-trans pathology going on?

Because it seems like a completely normal, rational and justified response.

Im not saying anyone is stupid because they can't argue their case, @PaillettenBedeckt - it's more that it's not a defensible one. Please don't put words into people's mouths.

I won't debate it because other people think they are cleverer and have egos.

Ok.

That's a new one.

We were told we were stupid and uneducated before, so I guess that's progress.

absolutely this - your boundaries were crossed OP, as were your daughters and her friends.

Good men stay out, so bad men stand out!!!

A man doesnt stop being a man because he puts on a dress and a bit of lippy, even if he has strong lady feels - we all know this though we are no called names/bigots/tranphobes if we don't pretend along.

its all total nonsense. TW can be prefectly trans and OK without trangressing womens boundaries - but they do. I would suspect that those who do enjoy it - its a thrill for them - google AGP/autogynephilia

You might find this new film enlightening:
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It's irrefutable that women have had their intelligence insulted when discussing this subject.

If you want to be able to debate this openly on MN and really get people on your side, that needs to stop. Pretending it doesn't happen is isn't helping you.

You have some good points. I'm not telling you to be meek and roll over, but when people get attacked they won't listen to anything you've got to say, valid or not.

We were told we were stupid and uneducated before, so I guess that's progress

I certainly didn't say that. You don't appear to be stupid or uneducated to me. If anyone is saying things like that, they need to look at themselves because it's a lazy argument.