Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

It's funny how so many of the mantras trotted out about speaking for yourself, political and online representation, how your own sense of identity, fears about erasure, the importance of your own lived experience, issues of fairness, privacy and dignity and your mental health somehow don't apply to women but do apply to transwomen (but transmen are noticeable by their lack of media requests for comment...)

It's almost as if...

....na can't quite put my finger on it.

What bad reasons, He just wants to pee in peace!

"However, I am conflicted because just because I am comfortable around trans people doesn’t mean everyone should be".

I think I understand what you are meaning here. However, can I just point out that the people who are raising this as an issue are very rarely concerned about 'trans people'. It is important to make this clear so that there is no confusion.

Female people are concerned because MALE people are entering their female single sex spaces. It is not because these male people are transgender that is the issue. It is because they are MALE.

Many people involved in this discussion have trans people in our daily lives. This is not about people with transgender identities. It is about when male people demand that their gender identity is prioritised above the needs of female people.

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Yes this is so true!
It reminds me of a time I went to the 'wild fruit' club night in Kemptown in my early 20's and the ladies loos was full of men in women's clothes and they wanted me to put their makeup on for them - no woman has ever asked me to do that in a public toilets! Possibly friends before a night out - helping each other with face sequins, but never a woman I've only just met.

I helped them but it was all very drama / drama / excited giggling from the men.

My reaction to them was as a woman putting on a man's makeup: for the fun of it.

I wonder if they really think that's what women do in the ladies loos?

We are grown ups and put our own makeup on thanks daaaarlings.

Well he could go and use a urinal in the men’s.

I can't deny that you have valid points there. It certainly is a difficult topic to discuss openly on the internet. I don't think that should be the case. I can see why this makes you protective over your freedom of speech on MN.

However, and I'm not going to debate this with you any further, with regard to point C, while you may be correct that you are unable to change your biological sex, there are people who legitimately feel that they were born in the wrong gender. Those people deserve kindness, compassion, and respect, and they need to live their lives in peace and comfort, although no they can never become a true woman with all that entails. Being a woman is a unique experience that you cannot emulate. However, the fact is that you likely already have been in a public toilet with a trans woman and not known it, because they aren't all hulking hairy handed beasts in lipstick, and absolutely no harm came to anyone whatsoever. It's a complicated subject that we cannot afford to have black and white thinking about. There's a middle ground here and we need to find it in order to truly come to a resolution here. I don't believe that resolution is to force all trans women, including those who would genuinely suffer deeply from it because they need to live their lives in the way that corresponds to the gender they feel in their heart, to use the men's toilet. That doesn't take away from the fact that you are a born woman. No one can take that away from you. But perhaps gender identity is more complicated than you would like to give it credit for?

That's all I'm going to say on the subject. I will not debate this with anyone. That's my view and I'm entitled to have it without being insulted or called names. I'm sorry if it isn't the same as yours, but such is life.

Which is exactly what he should do, but sssh you aren't allowed to say that!

And that's great that you don't.

However, in the news over the last month or so we've had:

• woman set on fire and killed by her ex
• mother and daughters shot by one of their ex boyfriends with a crossbow
• young girls stabbed to death at a dance class
• man found to have been drugging his wife and then allowing men to pay to have sex with her. Possibly also his step daughter
• man who has kept a woman in a shed for years, and has removed her teeth and lips amongst other abuse
• women in Afghanistan now not being allowed to speak in public (as decided by men)
• man randomly stabbing a woman and daughter in the street in London

So I'll be honest, I'm a bit wary.

"What good reason is there for a grown man to go into the women and girls toilets?"

Indeed. Rather than create that list though, let's make sure that everyone knows what women and girls actually do in the female toilets.

Why? Because it is not confined to the cubicles as many would like us to believe. AND there are many things that we use the female toilets for that no MALE person needs them for.

What do women do in toilets?

I spent many days, often 2-3 times a week, where I had a stroller or pram jammed in the door because I had no one but myself to do shopping. And I didn’t need the change table so didn’t use the accessible toilet if there was one. That included at period time with flooding periods and hormonal diarrhoea. Particulary after pregnancy. Often with a crying infant.

I have also had to take my wheelchair bound elderly mother to a normal cubicle when there was no accessible toilet available. Where I couldn’t leave her to sit without assistance to remove the wheelchair to lock the door .

I, too, have washed clothing out, and at times had to unbutton shirts to get them dry from baby vomit, or leaking breasts.

I have even had to do this at work when I was stuck in an event for hours and could not leave to express so ended up with significant leakage. More than once. Because breastfeeding women work too.

And got dressed in work toilets for various reasons.

And cried there and comforted others. And hid there from men who wouldn’t take no for an answer.

I know I am not the only one because several times this past year I have come across half stripped women in the toilets while out dealing with similar issues.

The solution is not demanding gender neutral toilets. It is not suggesting fully enclosed cubicles. A female taking up a cubicle to wash and dry clothes is putting an undue time demand on those waiting to use that cubicle.

So, who does 'fully enclosed cubicles' actually help? Only those male people who wish to use the female spaces ultimately. Because now the line up for the toilet is longer. And if those cubicles are 'unisex', the male people are now also lining up. What a great solution!

There are many reasons that women do not want males in the toilet.

I often think it must be nice to never have had to deal with just period flooding the number of times I have since being a teenager. What a wonderfully privileged position to have been in! Well done those who have had this privilege who lack the understanding of that privilege and are happy to dismiss other's needs to retain female spaces as single sex with no male people.

I realise that I have very heavy periods compared to some people, but it certainly made me very aware of the need for single sex spaces. In fact, now in peri, I am on a menstrual leash. I cannot leave the house some days due to the flooding incidents, which is fine as those days I can work from home.

However, the female toilets have never been used just to ‘pee’. I am always surprised when people either never realised this or never acknowledge it.

Being pro-women does not equal anti-trans.

I'm pro equality and the recognition of the sex based issues women have. This means you can do gender if you want as long as it doesn't negatively impact me and take away my rights and protections or those of children.

No one is saying these people don't deserve kindness and compassion and respect or that they shouldn't live their lives in prace and comfort.
All I ask is that they give the same back to women, but they don't and that is where I have a problem.

Men have men's spaces. Women have women's spaces.

What's tricky about it?

Either we have single sex spaces or we don't.

Completely normal reaction.

Your teenage girl was in there and you saw someone who was obviously a man enter a space that has always been reserved for women and your instinct was to think about the potential danger.

If you have your pants down and are sitting inside a small loo cubicle where you can easily be boxed in, that makes you more vulnerable to a man who could have come into the loo with dodgy intentions.

The visceral fear/sense of self-preservation does not go away because a man is wearing a dress and make up and calls himself a woman.

We have gender neutral loos only at work and that always makes me on edge when I have to use the facilities.

That is not incompatible with the fact that in general I wish transgender people the best and would not want to see anyone discriminated/attacked because they are trans.

However that does not mean they should have access to female only spaces like loos or domestic violence refuges.

Right, but how come you feel entitled to write a really long post about your view and how entitled you are to have it, while concomitantly instructing us to shut up and not share our views?

FWIW I have met a transwoman in the loo. I was seventeen, he was masturbating.

I don't know about 'suffer deeply' - men can use the men's loos with no issue.

I am simply not prepared to be scared of men.

In answer to the op: Why were female toilets created in the first place?

"However, the fact is that you likely already have been in a public toilet with a trans woman and not known it, because they aren't all hulking hairy handed beasts in lipstick, and absolutely no harm came to anyone whatsoever."

This is a bit of misinformation that extreme activists like to try to convince people of.

And it is also a falsity that ignores the very premise of safeguarding. Of why toilets and single sex spaces were segregated in the first place.

It relies on some activists using a very rare case to then destabilise safeguarding decisions for an entire sub group of male people. The falsity is that they declare that this sub group of male people don't carry the same risk as any other male person in the UK.

And really the onus is on anyone trying to change safeguarding protocols to provide evidence where a male at any stage of transition has less or the same risk of committing a sexual offence as any female person in the UK?

Then comes the question about what is acceptable risk with these forced new safeguarding decisions.

How many women or girls harmed is acceptable to allow a sub-set of male people to have access to female single sex spaces knowing that those male people have at least the same degree of risk of committing a sex offense as all the other male people in the UK?

And for the record, there has already been more than 1. Many more harmed. Particularly when you consider those who now exclude themselves from services and public life because they do not have single sex spaces available to them.

Would those dismissing the need for single sex spaces like to finally offer a number? or will it just be another n+1 exercise?

In the years of asking this question, I have seen two answers. One poster decreed 31 female people to be acceptable to be harmed. One male poster declared that over 100 each year was acceptable in his eyes to be harmed before he would accept that female people might have a case to argue that female single sex spaces are restored.

Anyone on this thread want to quantify the acceptable damage that their inaction or their active support of male people accessing female single sex spaces needs to have before they change their mind?

But we should be debating why people feel like this.

We shouldnt assume it's because of gender identity.

The Cass Review pointed out that there were multiple groups caught up in this who are trans identifying as children and are massively over represented. They had complex needs and issues.

Why? We should be seeking to understand what's going on rather than just affirm.

There is an above average representation with a history of sexual abuse related trauma, trauma though break up of family, autism and same sex attracted. It was noted that outside pressures from family and peers were relevant.

I recently found out that lots of women find out they are autistic when they hit menopause because they are more sensitive to hormone changes and they hit a crisis. This is well accepted and all over autistic support groups. But no such similar considerations are thought about with regards to puberty and why girls might struggle.

Gay men are concerned that young gay boys are effectively undergoing conversion therapy with affirm only approaches.

Equally men tend to transition later in life. And follow different patterns. Why are teenage girls transitioning and later transitioning males lumped together.

And go forbid we should talk about cross dressing and sex offending cos this is apparently transphobic to ask whether we should be concerned about paraphernalia and male patterns of behaviour.

We absolutely should be talking about whether we should affirm - to give the best support in the right way to all groups and to identify whether certain things are indeed cause for concern (and whether they are not).

It's difficult and at times distressing and unpleasant but failure to talk about this does more harms than doing so. We need to recognise the importance of these conversations as not being anti anyone but pro vulnerable.

I would really really like for posters to start posting the evidence of the violence that male people with transgender identities experience, en masse, in the UK by using male toilets.

@Helleofabore as someone who has had horrifically heavy periods for over 30 years and breastfed my 3children, I agree with everything you said.
I don't want to have to sort myself out in front of other women nevermind men.
I don't want men in my space, my daughter doesn't want men in her and my granddaughters spaces either. Why isn't that enough? Why do we have to justify our reasoning for single sex spaces?

The Equality Act supports single sex spaces for our privacy, dignity and safety.

Yet here we are fighting to keep it that way and told that we are wrong for wanting to keep it that way, it's so depressing.

You felt like that because transwomen are men. Only men can become transwomen, so therefore there was man in your daughters space that should only be for women. Humans can't change sex, that man should have gone to the mens toilets, no matter how he "feels" or dresses.

Is it really that tricky?

You say you are comfortable around some friends that are male, but how comfortable? Would you share a hotel room with one? Would you get changed in an open plan changing room at the swimming pool? Would you expect women or young girls who don't know your presumably lovely male friends to do either of those things? If not, why not?

As I said, I'm not debating it so please save your hands from writing long paragraphs to me.

It'll get us nowhere so let's just agree to disagree. You all have good and valid points, but your conclusions I can't get into bed with.