Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Sarcasm isn't a crime. Speaking about womens rights isn't either. Why should we be banished to our own board for speaking our minds?

Transvestigators are a very weird bunch of anti-LGBT conspiracy theorists who think loads of celebrities are transgender. As with most anti-transgender people, they are devoted and have remarkably resilient but entirely wrong beliefs.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/a-wild-investigation-of-transvestigators-the-people-who-think-celebs-are-all-trans/

I's also like to point out that when I speak about this subject in real life I don't get banished to a different room, sure people might not always agree with me, but it's still my opinion and I am free(for now)to voice it without punishment.

No sorry, I don't buy it. You were rather specific and only FWR posters or monitors would know that.

Is that you CM? Hi 🖐

After so many threads about the two boxers in the Olympics, I realised how freeing it is to never feel the need to use 'preferred language' again.

Because we have recently been shown just how meaningless the language that some people demand is and how it is based on philosophical belief. Why?

Because to be a person with a transgender identity is not based on having gender dysphoria. We have been told this now by professional academics as well as trans people themselves. Even a neuroscientist told us most recently. "We’re still categorising being transgender as a medical problem, which it is not.". says Dr Vassili Crispi (he/they), an academic neurosurgery trainee who sits on the British Medical Association (BMA) UK Council, and who is part of the doctors’ union’s new LGBTQ+ network.

Therefore the only commonality for people with transgender identities is their philosophical belief.

Meaning no one needs to comply with another persons philosophical belief.

No one.

No matter how kind or respectful that person who is trying to shame you into complying tells you that it is to use the preferred language, it is someone who is demanding that you support their own philosophical belief.

You are totally free to choose to base your own language on using the sometimes centuries old established meanings of words and the established protocols of language that are based around sex. Not someone's identity.

This also means that male people have demanded access to female toilets because of their belief. Nothing more. No wonder so many women and girls have become aware of this issue and are upset and confused.

What other groups of males should female people have to allow to have access to use female single sex spaces based on nothing but those male people's philosophical belief? Any one care to tell us?

Also while on the topic of 'preferred language'.

Based on posts from another thread where a poster assured us that cis women are what we should be talking about when referring to two male boxers who competed in the female category of boxing in the Paris Olympics, I decided that we need as many women who read these threads to understand just what that term means.

The term 'cis' is now meaningless because it also now includes any male person who has a DSD yet has a body that is **formed around the production of small gametes, ie. a male person with a difference of sex development that have testes or testes tissue. Such as Caster Semenya.

Therefore, female people have no unique words that describe just those female people who have a body ^^formed around the production of large gametes.

Because 'girl' and 'woman' both now include:

1 Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **.

2 Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.

3 And any person who has a female body ^^.

Under the label of 'girl' and 'woman', extreme transgender activists have been telling us for years that those labels break down into two types of girls or women: Cis and Transwomen/transgirls.

These terms mean:

Cis = 1 Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **

and 3 Any person who has a female body^^

Trans = 2 Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.

There is no unique word to mean female people who have a body ^^formed around the production of large gametes.

Cis is now shown to be meaningless. Yet we still get posters telling us we need to use it out of respect? Respect for which people? Because to me that demand looks like misogyny to me.

By the way, since there are plenty of transwomen who also identify as 'girls' don't forget that age and maturity of the body is also now a meaningless categorisation under those who come into the 'trans' category.

I hope that the graphic helps people to understand just what 'cis' actually means.

What action has MN taken based on 'sarcasm'?

Good to know Fae works so hard to combat misogyny. Mind you, as a man himself he will have a favourable start in recognising it, understanding the reasons behind it and being able to suggest ways to stop misogyny rearing its ugly head.

Next week Fae is going to tackle mansplaining, why do men do it! Fae will explain in simple terms that anyone can understand exactly why it is that men need to tell people, especially women, about things they already know about, like periods, having babies, PMT, the menopause and why too much eyeshadow can just look tacky.

What good reason is there for a grown man to go into the women and girls toilets?

It’s hard to think.

On the other hand it’s very easy to list bad reasons he might go in, isn’t it?

^^this

Dress how you want, use whatever name you want, and enjoy whatever you enjoy and fuck whether it’s ’masculine’ or ‘feminine’. The more people who feel free to just be themselves without trying to fit into a box, the better.

But humans cannot change sex and women need safe single sex spaces.

It’s only complicated if you believe that the rights of one group of people to feel validated are more important than the rights of another group of people to feel safe. And if someone believes that, it tells me everything i need to know about them.

I'm a fan of sarcasm. But it isn't a brilliant debate tactic.

Actions have consequences. When you have repeated threads with dozens of deleted posts because 'speaking your mind' becomes attacking anyone who doesn't agree with you, you get to the point that the only people who want to debate it with you already agree with you.

So it isn't a debate. It is an echo chamber, like it or not. Because those people who think, well maybe some trans people are just trying to go about their day and need a wee, are told that they're stupid and they hate women.

It just isn't helpful. You aren't persuading anyone.

I'd say the same thing to those on the other side who have equally poor debating skills.

Ultimately, these people exist and you exist and throwing stones at each other is not useful. If you won't find a middle ground, this problem will never be resolved.

Anyway, I've made my point. Either you can see what I'm trying to say or you don't. I'm not going to get angry or insult you if you don't. Not everyone is going to agree with me and that's fine.

As with most anti-transgender people, they are devoted and have remarkably resilient but entirely wrong beliefs.

Well, not entirely wrong, because they at least actually know what a woman is.

Fae sounds amazing doesn’t he.

‘Reversing the situation How do men feel about trans women entering their toilets ?’

I asked DH ; .the answer was 🤢. Of course he lives with a bigot, so may not be representative.

I don't know what you're referring to.

No, I absolutely don't go on that board. I might have something in similar threads if I did. It's not a healthy environment so I stay well away.

Again, that's my point. I've said it enough now so I'll leave you to vehemently agree with each other, as usual.

It's ok to want safe single sex spaces for women.

Of course it is. Can anyone say why it's not ok for women and girls to have this?

But humans cannot change sex and women need safe single sex spaces.

It’s only complicated if you believe that the rights of one group of people to feel validated are more important than the rights of another group of people to feel safe. And if someone believes that, it tells me everything i need to know about them.

This.

Because we're in danger of being sarcastic and not shutting up if we're not confined to them?

Hold on.

I may have got that a bit muddled ...

We're to stay in our place, but also some men want to use our spaces, and we must not complain about that.

That right?

I noticed in a popular theatre that men still had Men on the door whereas women had to access 'Gender Neutral'

Why do we have our language and spaces altered, we can't even use our own sex class description, and men do not?

The trouble is that this is literally just about the only place on the internet where women can speak about therefore for themselves.

And even if it is an echo chamber it is important than women have this ability and space to do this

That it's deemed not ok and 'just an echo chamber's doesn't reflect the fact there are a) plenty of other places to talk about this b) women aren't allowed to talk about the reality and impact on them anywhere else and c) it doesn't stop the fact that you can't change sex regardless of how many linguistics hoops or tricks of emotional blackmail you are subjected to, to force you to try and ignore this 'minor' point.

Oh come on. I get deleted frequently without attacking anyone, while other posts much worse than mine get to stay up.

No one is denying these people exist. All we ask is that they stay out of womens spaces, but that is apparently too much to ask.
As for debating skills, what do you think makes a good debate?

Yes you do. You slipped up.

A lot of those deleted posts are because of something you referenced in your previous posts on this thread. Nice try.

I’m not ‘anti-transgender’, just ‘anti men in women’s spaces’ but which of the common facts that people like me often discuss are you calling entirely wrong?

The fact that people can’t change sex?
That biological sex is important and shouldn’t be overwritten by self declared gender?
The fact that single sex spaces exist for a reason and should be respected?
The fact that my daughter should have single sex toilets in school?
That men shouldn’t be in women’s sports, even if they really believe they are women?

And if you are a man, why do you speak to frequently to tell women how we should feel about men in our spaces?

I’m really conflicted about how I feel too. I have a few friends who are male to female trans.

My gut reaction is that I don’t mind and they should be able to live however they want and identify as they choose. However, I am conflicted because just because I am comfortable around trans people doesn’t mean everyone should be (for example if a trans woman was in a refuge for women escaping domestic violence, I would understand why that would make some women very uncomfortable) and it’s encroaching on women’s rights.

hmm it’s a very tricky one.

I imagine that if a flat-Earther came onto the forum to give their point of view, they would be set upon for talking nonsense. Then they would say things like:

When you have repeated threads with dozens of deleted posts because 'speaking your mind' becomes attacking anyone who doesn't agree with you, you get to the point that the only people who want to debate it with you already agree with you.

So it isn't a debate. It is an echo chamber, like it or not. Because those people who think, well maybe the Earth is flat and the evidence for world-roundness is all fake, are told that they're stupid and hate science.

Some times there is an objectively verifiable difference between truths and erroneous beliefs.