Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Why the hell wouldn't you? Do you not read the news? Not all men are like that, obviously. But it only takes one man to influct an experience leaving you with a lifetime of PTSD and that's if you're "lucky".

Not all men are like that, but for each that is "like that" there will be multiple victims.

You do know men commit over 90% of all violent and sexual crime? You do know there is a pattern of male sexual violence that is known to escalate, from voyeurism and flashing to rape and bodily harm?

You do know the reason it's more likely to be a man you know is simply because those men have easier access and opportunity, right?

Whoever told you that living an authentic, free life equates to letting men into single sex areas for women sold you a lie. It's just more of the centuries old common misogyny I'm afraid. A clever way for women to be pushed back out of public life, without looking bad like men from Afghanistan do.

This thread was in trending, it's how I found it. As for the similar threads that is a you problem, it's loading fine for me.

I just found this thread in trending btw. Should I not have? Are the women being heretical again?

Sorry. It does get worse as well. As I say, the behaviours escalate.

So your only purpose is to scold?

I see .

Living as a woman doesn’t make them a woman. They are still a man underneath all that clothes and with that comes the dangers that men pose.

IAmAWarriorPrincessHonestGuv · Today 15:00
The trouble is, we don’t know what he’s up to in there. The thrill that trans identifying males clearly get from entering the ladies toilets (they frequently post triumphant selfies on social media) is an issue in itself. The thrill seekers will inevitably escalate their behaviour as the initial ‘frisson’ wears off.

This predictable escalation scares the shit out of me.

Why doesn't it scare policy makers, employers, businesses, police or politicians?

There really are some sick individuals out there. But hey, welcome to our single-sex spaces, to our toilets, our rape crisis centres, ours sports teams, our changing rooms! Yes, I know NATWALT, but FFS.

I checked two different browsers and other pages. Maybe that topic appears for the posters who use it. It doesn't for me. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like an oddly specific technical error if it is one.

Disruptors are helpful to these conversations to show certain things.

Like how women can not talk about women's rights and concerns without deliberate attempts to detail and disrupt...

...thank you for your valuable contribution to the thread. It's always enlightening.

It was trending for over an hour, but it hasn't been for a while. I think you just missed it.

Shaming women for discussing this issue is directly attempting to silence them.

You can deny it all you want. But it really doesn't change the facts.

And yes, it has been in trending. There are plenty of new posters here. Why not lay out your 'nuanced' opinion and convince those new to the argument.

Alas.

What do you want me to say? That you don't attack other posters? That you haven't been confined to your own board? That you're not banned from posting recipes? That we don't usually have dozens of deleted posts on the threads? That most people are glad to engage with you?

That wouldn't be true.

If you really genuinely believe that you approach this debate constructively and that you're able to discuss differing opinions in good spirits, without resorting to personal attacks, then it doesn't matter what I think.

'Confined to your own board'.

🤔

Why do you keep mentioning recipes? Does that mean you frequent the naughty corner too 😱

Back in the kitchen Arabella! Know your place.

It's always enlightening isn't it?!

It’s quite terrifying and is a known issue. I read an interesting thread recently where a female detective reported that even though numerous studies and criminology experts know that there is a strong link between cross dressing males and sadistic sexual crimes and serial killers (one study identified that 40% of sexually sadistic murderers were transvestites) - it has now become verboten to say this as the DEI training has taken over and police are not allowed to consider this in their investigations.

"So if someone who was born a man wants to live as a woman, I have no issues.*"

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

Therefore, the only commonality to being a girl or a woman, is not based on deciding what actions / feelings / decisions etc constitutes as being one a girl vs boy or woman vs man makes. It purely is based on how that girl or woman reacts to life's experiences of having a female sexed body. ie. Something that no male claiming an identity as a girl or woman can experience.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is. They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life).

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

Eventually, once the emotional manipulation has been cleared away, it is inevitable that the majority of people will understand that they have been promoting these people's beliefs as facts. And that these beliefs are only ever a manifestation of their these male people's concept of both what is stereotypically 'male' (which they are rejecting) and stereotypically 'female'. It is sexist. It always was.

I cannot see this claiming of being girl or woman as being anything but misogynistic in this instance. Because it is a male person using their own concept of what being a female human is to suit their own needs.

How can it be anything but misogyny.

God no! But I've been on MN long enough to have witnessed the furore and unpleasant behaviour.

I'm just pointing out that it's unproductive at best, counterproductive at worst.

It’s quite terrifying and is a known issue. I read an interesting thread recently where a female detective reported that even though numerous studies and criminology experts know that there is a strong link between cross dressing males and sadistic sexual crimes and serial killers (one study identified that 40% of sexually sadistic murderers were transvestites) - it has now become verboten to say this as the DEI training has taken over and police are not allowed to consider this in their investigations.

That is shocking.

Hey Wims! Stop having discussions all over the discussion board you vile nasty things! Shut the fuck up and go back to your own board!

(this is sarcasm by the way)

Aw lovely Vivek and Fae. Such pretty ladies. So proud of them. As we all should be.

https://notthebee.com/article/big-props-to-these-trailblazers-just-named-among-eight-incredible-canadian-women

I appreciate that it isn't ideal for you. That's my point.

Perhaps if there had been a little less sarcasm, it wouldn't have become such a nightmare that MN had to take action.