Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

Yes, did you read my post?

Transvestigators

What a shame the trans obsession has spilled out of the laughably named 'feminist' section.

Can I open a female only transvestigation agency? I'd be really good at it.

If you were truly free thinking and live and let live then why on earth would you need to google? Do you google when you see lots of brown people in a pub you go to?

No because there are plenty of people of all races in society. Males trying to pass as women, outside certain places like Brighton, not so much.

There's a reason this topic got confined to one area of MN. These threads go exactly the same way every single time. It's tedious.

//

It's also highly tedious to be told by the hard of thinking that humans can change sex and that the rights of biological men accessing female spaces trumps the safety and dignity of women and girls.

But hey ho

I knew you would appear on this thread. Do you post on any other types of thread?
Yes, we females do notice when we see a transwoman. Very few TW pass as female. We have an innate sense as to what sex a person is. It's for self preservation.
Not that you'd understand that of course, being male.

People should realise that this is the attraction for many of these male people.

My son reads 'Investigators' children's comic book series.

I can not read the word 'transvestigators' without thinking about cartoon alligators.

(maybe that's the point and why it's called transvestigators...)

Oh for gods sake.

Its because they’re actually men and we all know it really - no matter what everyone says.

Why do you think women have been concerned about the loss of women’s only spaces. Because when you’re “kind” you get men with fetishes in our spaces.

Equally, you could have simply scrolled past my comment and ignored that if you didn't like it.

If the debate tactics used on these threads are so patently reasonable and productive, why do you care what I think about it?

Makes me fucking laugh.

Women who object to biological men accessing their safe spaces due to safety concerns are accused of hysteria and bigotry.

While being told by other posters those men should be allowed in due to safety concerns. Because the men in the other facilities are a danger

So not actually going to engage in the points raised in my posts?

it’s your tactics that I’m trying to highlight to those who are less familiar with the ways in which some people try to silence women on matters that harm us.

We see posters like you frequently in the ‘naughty corner’, women like the OP who are worried due to being conditioned to ‘be kind’ or being led to believe that favouring safety & dignity & fairness for women might be in some way a bigoted or right wing belief may be less familiar with such silencing tactics.

🙄

Women talking about women's rights are not allowed to talk about women's rights on a predominantly women's forum without harassment or being told it's not ok to talk about them unless they talk about them in the right way / place or just why don't they shut up completely.

So yeah, I'm kinda over the controlling types on the subject.

@ArabellaScott

Nice video. The lovely Kim prowling around the kids section of that department store admiring their reflection.

Not at all concerning behaviour. The normal behaviour of adult males all the time.

This is the most sensible thing I have ever read on mumsnet totally agree

There are plenty of new people reading this thread. You can see it in the interactions. That you choose not to acknowledge them is your choice.

Can you support your opinion with anything other than emotional reasoning?

Because I would love to see an opinion that was backed up with evidence as to why any male person above the age of about 8 years old should access female toilets. If you don't have anything but emotional reasoning, then that may be why people ignore your opinion. Particularly since you are keen to shame others for what you believe is having extreme opinions.

And you have used the standard derogatory 'echo chamber' there as well. Seems like you are the one with some deep prejudices about posters on the Feminist boards.

So not actually going to engage in the points raised in my posts?

No, I'm not. Because you're not interested in hearing my point of view and discussing it. Your goal here is to tell me what you think and for me to agree with you, without question. If I do feel that there may be a middle ground here to be considered, woe betide me.

I don't see the value in that.

I'm still not the toilet police so I'm not going to be able to do anything about this in any event so why bother.

This combines the census data, which we the UK public were assured would be accurate information and the conviction rates for the male people with transgender identities in UK prisons. It excludes those male people with GRCs because the Ministry of Justice cannot separate those statistics.

So, it could likely to be higher.

These rates are consistent with the hand sorted data that women's groups collated before the ministry of justice started to report on transgender prison populations in the UK.

It's simple really..Men and transwomen share loos, biological women have their own. However because genuine transgender post operative bio males (vanishingly rare) are scared of men in loos they don't want to. No shit Sherlock, men can be vile. We then add in the kinks.
My family member a FTM tried using a male loo once at the height of their transmale conforming identity, the result? Harassment and the threat of a sexual assault (hello darling what you need is a good seeing to). They have never done it again.
Ladies these things have to be debated or men take away our rights. It's got f**k all to do with kindness and everything to do with misogyny. If a whole load of women went into male loos up and down the country there would be outrage as we might be hoping to catch a look at their todgers. A thought perhaps?

I wouldn't have felt the same had it been a woman who had transitioned to a man (although I assume they would then use the gents!) or if there had been a particularly manly/butch looking woman.

Of course you wouldn't , because they are women and the female toilet is a space for women. Transwomen are men and should use the male toilet. Not wanting men to use the female toilets is totally reasonable.

While we are on the discussion about the 'evidence' of male pattern offending and whether this changes depending on whether a male person has declared they are female or not, here are some more places to start.

Here are some places to start with that evidence that this group of male people commit sex crime and violence crime at the same rate as female people so you can make that correct comparison.

Here you go, this is the information behind that graphic.

There are 48,000 transwomen.

Of that 30.4 million women, 125 are currently incarcerated as serious sex offenders.
1 in 243,000 Of the 48,000 transwomen, 82 are currently incarcerated as serious sex offenders.

1 in every 585.

https://x.com/mar2vickers/status/1611484662093828127

And here you go, this was presented to parliament and I don't believe anyone has ever shown the information to be false.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Ministry of Justice 2020 Data

The question of whether transwomen match male or female patterns of criminality is specifically addressed by the 2020 FOI referenced by Fair Play For Women (who have submitted evidence to the Committee). This is first time there has been official data to compare the rate of sex offending in 3 different groups. Men vs women vs transwomen. The hyperlinks below link to the FOI spreadsheet.

MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. This includes 36 convictions for rape and 10 for attempted rape. These are clearly male type crimes (rape is defined as penetration with a penis).
Here is the number compared with figures for sex offending rates in men and women over the same period.

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):

76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3% 13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

and here

Michael Biggs, ‘The Transition from Sex to Gender in English Prisons: Human Rights and Queer Theory’, SocArXiv, 17 May 2020

https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/43f2t

I am looking forward to someone posting the evidence that this group of male people should be treated any differently for safeguarding purposes for the safety of female people than ANY OTHER MALE PERSON.

In fact, I would welcome someone posting the evidence that a male person at any stage of their transition has the same or lower risk of committing a violent or sex crime as ANY OTHER FEMALE PERSON. And if you cannot post this evidence, why do you believe that this group of male people should be accessing ANY female single sex space.

And it is not just about safety. It is also about privacy and dignity as I and many others have said.

Male people have form for using female people as resources for their own needs of validation, acceptance etc. Not just in prison but this can be extrapolated to be the case everywhere.

https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/en/publications/she-was-just-like-a-lassie-analysing-the-views-of-cis-women-in-cu

I'm not silencing you. You've silenced yourself by attacking other posters until you end up being put in your own corner of MN, essentially muted. That's why similar threads isn't loading on only this page. It could be a technical error but I highly doubt it.

I doubt this thread is going to appear in trending either.