Milk allergy death- should the book be thrown at the staff involved?

[mids2019]

....or if you are minimum wage staff member working in a stressed environment without English as a first language there should be leniency. Doctors are paid for life and death decisions but are Costa staff?

A lot of people have commented quite negatively on the barista needing a translator.

One news report I have seen also said that the mother had a translator at the inquest too.

Does that influence anyone’s opinions? What about the names of the people involved?

Hannah Jacobs - the child that died
Abimbola Duyile - mother
Urmi Akter - Barista
Iqra Farhad - Dentist
Santokh Kahlon - pharmacist
Zeenat Paniwala - customer at pharmacy

Barking is a multicultural area. I see at least 5 different language backgrounds represented in those 6 names. English is probably the lingua Franca but potentially not the first language of everyone listed.
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Based on what has been reported so far, it seems that the barista didn’t hear the mother say ‘soya milk’. She did hear ‘my daughter has allergies’. So the conversation would have gone something like this:

Mum: soy milk hot chocolate, please. Two. And my daughter has allergies so can you wash the jug between drinks?
Barista: I can wash the jug but the drink contains milk?
Mum: Fine.
Barista: <weird order, whatever, customer knows best>

Genuine question:
When you communicate with someone, is the onus on the speaker to ensure the listener has understood? Or the listener to have fully heard and comprehended what the speaker is saying?

If you're preparing food or drink and the customer mentions an allergy, the onus is on you to be sure you know what the allergen is.

This is why is should be handed over to someone else I think.

Except she specifically said my daughter has an allergy at that point the allergy book should have come out and clarification sought

Sorry if someone has already posted this but we came across this when DD was researching where her and her BF could go. Costa cannot guarantee that their hot chocolate, mocha and I cant remember what else, have not suffered cross contamination due to being produced somewhere that manufactures products containing milk. They make that very clear on their ingredients listing.

I wouldnt take the risk personally. I can undersand the mother wanting it to be someone elses fault, because if it isnt then she took a risk that cost her daughter her life, but ultimately, thats the reality.

If my child had such severe allergies I wouldn't trust ANYONE but me to prepare their food. No one can guarantee ANYTHING is allergen free

The case is nothing to do with cross contamination though.

Every coffee shop I’ve ever used has a notice on the counter to the effect that if a customer asks for non-dairy “milk”,they cannot guarantee that the drink will be totally dairy-free as they use the same frother for all milks. ie, safe if you don’t like real milk, up to you if you are vegan and not safe for people with dairy allergies or lactose intolerance.

So you would only have food you had grown in your garden?

I had a lady in the pub a couple of months ago, ordered from the NGCI menu and I said that we couldnt guarantee non cross contamination. Not a problem, she would be fine she said.

Except it turned out that it was a MASSIVE problem. She ate her food that had been on the same pass as her friends gluten containing food and it was run after her friends naan bread had been plated. Turned out that floating particles landing on her food are enough to cause a severe reaction. Collapse, vomitting, ambulance, the works. I was really worried as her friend said she didnt carry an epi pen. She didnt tell us this could happen, and if she had I wouldnt have served her any food as the kitchen is so small I really couldnt be sure she would be safe, but she didnt. Her son went off on one threatening to sue until she agreed (this was all done later) that she had been warned, didnt tell us and ordered anyway.

Except she specifically said my daughter has an allergy at that point the allergy book should have come out and clarification sought.

I agree. And Costa’s procedures are clear. And they were not followed.

Given that the barista didn’t hear ‘soya milk’ in the first place, the book may not have helped. Given the mother said ‘fine’, the book may not have helped. But it could have also opened up the conversation and saved a life.

But, again, should the mother have checked the barista’s understanding. She said at the inquest that she wasn’t sure the barista understood her. Should the barista have checked the mother’s understanding? The mother said ’fine’, should that not have bern accepted and the barista clarified further?

Hold on. I wouldn't get in a car with a drunk driver or defective brakes. Eating food you haven't 'cleared' if you're that vulnerable is crazy. Any cafe product has a long supply chain behind it. At any stage a mishap might occur. Buy a drink that may kill me. No thanks. But we all make different choices.

I don’t think it’s fair to make this judgement as unless you have allergies/have children with allergies you wouldn’t know that allergy care under the NHS is extremely limited - this girl may not have been prescribed an epi pen in the past as her allergy may not have been deemed as severe - allergy follow up appointments are once a year at best too - and considering the age she was (13) they might have even stopped seeing her or only seen her very infrequently. So no, she and her mother may not have known that her allergy required an epi pen if this was the first severe reaction

Every time you get in a car, you are trusting that every other driver on the road is driving safely and won't crash into you. You can minimise the risk of a car accident by making your own car and driving as safe as possible but you can't remove it due to having to trust other people to do the same. And also trust the council to maintain the roads properly.

If you order a dairy free drink in a cafe, you are trusting that the person serves you what you asked for. Lots of people with allergies choose chains because they usually have safe allergy procedures, and the mum told them her daughter had an allergy, she minimised the risk.

😂

My son has a dairy allergy and it's the milk protein he's allergic to.

A few people mistakenly think he is lactose intolerant and get us lactose free foods which is processed to break down the lactose (a sugar) but still contains the allergy causing proteins.

My son is also allergic to soya and the two allergies often go hand in hand because the proteins in them are similar. Stories like these make me so afraid of accidental exposure.

It sounds like this could have been caused by a cumulation of errors similar to the "swiss cheese" model used in healthcare.

My heart goes out to everyone involved, especially Hannah's mum.

It is absolutely tragic and so sad for the little girl and her family.
However my friend's DS has a life threatening allergy to egg and has a very carefully tailored diet because of it. When we have coffee/lunch and he is there we do it in eachothers houses as we know the food and drinks we consume are free from the allergen. It's a risk just not worth taking.
I myself have a nasty gluten intolerance and while not life threatening thankfully, I know I take a risk if I eat out.

You cant control who else is using the roads. There are drug drivers, drunk drivers, boy racers out there driving on those same roads.

I am very cautious where we eat out because of my children's allergies, but I am also mindful not to judge other parents who make other choices, because actually all parents take risks all the time. The reality is my children are far more likely to die in a road accident than of anaphylaxis.

You need to make sure you get a paper trail for these orders. I never mind filling out a form saying exactly what the allergies are and that I am comfortable with the explanation of the cooking process.

That's always my advice, keep a paper trail. (Or an electronic version)

so if that’s the case, do you think the health system is liable if they had not done regular check ups and follow up on the severity of the allergy?

Can't you see how limiting that would be for the whole family? My daughter has just as much right to a normal life as anyone else. It's not her fault she has allergies.

@Thmssngvwlsrnd

Of course she is. Can you also not see in this situation it’s incredibly different to monitor, to the point the risk is likely too high for it to ever be feasible.

I suspect that, as the incidence of allergies increases, and with cases like these putting establishments at risk of litigation, what will happen is that more and moore food outlets will just choose to put up a sign declaring that they cannot guarantee the place is free of any allergen, so people with allergies should not enter.

It is just not worth it for cafes and restaurants. It is hard enough as it is to make a profit.

This situation, yes. But there's been a few people on this thread saying that children with allergies should just never eat out, or never have their food prepared by anyone else, ever. Think about all the times we come together to eat, think of all the celebrations and opportunities that my daughter would miss out on. It's not the answer to simply never eat out. There needs to be better systems in place so that these tragedies stop happening.

I agree food and drink outlets are all going to make it very clear nothing can be guaranteed to be allergen free and the customer takes their own risks. It is not worth it for them to be open to litigation.