Milk allergy death- should the book be thrown at the staff involved?

[mids2019]

....or if you are minimum wage staff member working in a stressed environment without English as a first language there should be leniency. Doctors are paid for life and death decisions but are Costa staff?

I hear you.

Every time we buy something, we check. We have a couple of places where we eat out that we know and trust. I know that people will say that you should only ever eat at home and prepare food yourself - and it's taken a lot to get out and reassure ourselves when we eat out. Which is rare.

We self cater on holidays. I would love to eat in foreign restaurants but we self cater as it's safer. DS uses Google translate on the food labels.

DS recently went travelling. Luckily he could use hostel kitchens but I was so worried about him. He's off to uni soon - and eating out is a part of that - and I worry how that will impact him.

I feel for the parents and the employees in this situation. I can see how it happened.

Quite. Or e- coli. Or glass in the food. Or mad cow disease. Or carcinogens.

People with coeliac are actually at a higher risk from trace amounts /cross contamination. They can be very sensitive.

All the fatal reactions I have ever read about have been someone consuming the wrong food, not trace cross contamination

I think people are conflating two different things.
A restaurant that is advertised as allergen friendly - absolutely allergy suffers should be able to eat safely there. Or at least, have full information and decide whether or not they can eat there based off it.
But some people like @WickieRoy listed a load of completely different scenarios.
Of course for an allergy sufferers' own wedding or 21st etc they can have all the food allergen free, have caterers hire a kitchen that only makes that for the day no problem. There should be nothing to cross contaminate with unlike a busy restaurant.
But travel etc ... You are stuck in a place with no food except a tiny cafe... How on Earth can you guarantee that it's allergen free since some of these things require separate kitchens and they barely have one full catering size?
Do you expect the government to force all business to provide options?
Also eating in friends' houses well if your allergy is severe it's a massive burden to put on someone else if things need detailed wiping down, preventing cross contamination etc.

This is what we have to do with my son's dairy intolerance.

ILs think it's ok for him to have something with the butter scraped off etc. It's a strange kind of love that doesn't include avoiding causing your grandson pain.

But then I can't have dairy whilst I'm breastfeeding, and they served me lasagna, whilst unironically reminding me to serve vegan food to my husband's god brother.

Plenty of hot chocolate powders don't contain dairy.

So we don't claim anything is allergen free due to the size of our premises....and explain this to all...but some of our products are made gluten free/dairy free that's for the purchaser to decide whether to purchase....I have family members that are coeliac etc but then others have gluten intolerance which are completely different. Coeliacs have their own body attacking them...where as small intolerance is totally different. People have the choice whether or not to eat with us we absolutely cannot claim anything is contamination free. It's a minefield and very stressful. I get very stressed as I would hate for someone to become ill from our homebaking so clearly tell people.

But surely you wash everything between uses, know what ingredients are in each dish etc?
Decent ingredient awareness and decent food hygiene are all that is needed.

Absolutely but as I've said in previous posts due to the size of premises we can't offer the same to coeliac/lactose/nut/vegan as we dont have space for seperate machines etc...purely on that basis I mean. Obviously we have hygiene in place that's totally different to a a crumb getting into something from being in the same cabinet...we are covering our arses!

See we have had people in the cafe tell us to scrape cheese etc off things and i say no we will make you up a dairy free alternative its that simple and also I think the right thing to do but if something isn't dairy free I tell them...most also know.but that's bad that grandparents can't do that (also different generation...my own dad will say we never had this in our day its all made up!!!..yeah because the research wasnt done and people suffered)

You claim that's 'all" that's needed, and from your posts you're an allergen parent yourself. But other PP have mentioned separate kitchens, completely separate utensils, etc.
In theory it probably varies based on allergen type and severity but as @Bakingcupcake pointed out in such a small space is very very difficult to ensure a crumb, or droplet of something doesn't go where it isn't meant to.

Again using nuts as example if basic food safety was all it took, why do entire offices need to be nut free? Obviously it's airborne but what is a nut allergic person supposed to do it their food has been prepared in an environment that also contains food with nuts although everything has been washed etc?

Also how do they survive in restaurants which serve food with nuts?

Thank you. Wishing your son all the best for university!

Last summer I got very stressed trying to organise a holiday and felt so inadequate, reading threads on mumsnet from other allergy parents made me realise it was not just me being useless and that we are just in a different position to most of our friends. I decided then to just book self catering for now - more work for me but worth it for the peace of mind.

When we are out I check multiple times. As a shy person who hates fuss this doesn’t come naturally, and sometimes waiters can roll their eyes - but really there is no choice but to do so. In terms of only ever eating own food - another example - we have a relatives extremely significant birthday and a posh lunch at hotel coming up. We CANNOT miss it without causing high family drama… so I’m currently in correspondence with the hotel trying to sort something out. When my dc was a baby we brought their own food to venues but now it’s not always possible.

I can only hope that the court case following this tragedy brings about further safeguarding measures.

My mum has an intolerance (not an allergy)due to coeliac disease. Cross contamination is an issue for her. If we go to Costa she has coconut milk (lots of coeliacs also have lactose intolerance, and not all milk alternatives are gluten free). When we collect our drinks I check with the person who made them that they have used the right milk. It’s drummed into us. Check when we order, check with the person who made it on collection.
Even if the right milk was used in this tragic case, cross contamination with such a serious allergy could have also yielded and anaphylaxis response. If you have a food allergy, you risk your life every time you eat something you have not made yourself.

It’s so difficult. As a mum of a child with a severe allergy we do all we can to keep him safe but it’s not at simple as saying don’t eat out / trust others. That would massively limit what he can / can’t do and even buying things to have at home doesn’t always take the risk away because things are packaged in factories where there’s always a risk of cross contamination, unless we grow and make everything ourselves there’s always a small risk with anything he eats.

Again, nut protein isn't airborne and nut free schools and workplaces are no longer recommended (although many still go with that policy).

For nut allergies, checking ingredients and wiping down surfaces are more useful than bans.

I wondered about that too!

Instant hot chocolate usually contains milk.

But proper hot chocolate is made from cocoa powder which should be made from just that - cocoa.

The Costa hot chocolate powder you can buy in the shops doesn't contain milk (but does contain lots of additives).

Answered several times already - Costa hot chocolate powder is milk free but carries a may contain warning. That's probably why they chose Costa.

i work in fast food when training new staff i always state clearly if they mention they have a allergy say if you have a severe allergy we don't recommend you eat here as we handle everything .I made it clear to them some people just have to be in the same room as their allergen its so bad

Staff need to be trained properly sometimes training can be like Chinese whispers .

But still i do wonder with such a high risk why did she take her to a coffee shop they handle everything

There are quite a few threads on MN complaining that colleagues are eating nuts near them causing allergic reactions. On their own desks. Unless maybe crumbs are flying around?

My point though is that all a restaurant can do is comply with best practice to be, so-called 100% allergen safe, for a specific allergen. If they cant have separate prep areas for example (the main point of my post), they can't, they just have to call that out.

Accomodations aren't all equally easy and cheap to do. Obviously knowing ingredients is basic but anything with extra fixed costs like space probably not.

A PP on here posted an article about how stringent laws on nut safety just made manufacturers put nuts in all their products to avoid being sued.

What is the line between 'followed procedure, accidents happen' and 'completely CBA'?

I was served milk when I asked for oat milk coffee at costa. Fortunately I am not allergic and I did not say I was allergic.

Anyone can in theory become allergic at any time, but more likely, a moderate allergy that for example gives hives, one day could be anaphylactic. Exposure can ramp up an allergy’s seriousness over time. It’s unpredictable and can catch people out, so please do not be too harsh on this mother, as the daughter may have only reacted mildly in the past, it would explain antihistamines. She might think an injection was not necessary or may not have been prescribed one.

Also, Epipens are just adrenaline shots, not a sure fire cure.

Have read a couple of pages here and a newspaper article. We need to wait for inquest findings. This will be based on the full evidence.

So sorry for all the individuals involved. No matter what facts are found and if fault is attributed they each have to live with this.

Wrong. Peanut is the biggest risk. It is not a nut. It is airborne in the form of dust very close by or if cooked. It absolutely gives highly allergic people a reaction if close by, it probably won’t be anaphylactic and they will sense it and move.

The plane nut issue is of course you cannot just move and the air is recycled, hence the warnings.

My sister in law is severe coeliac but loves travelling abroad and I say eek how do you do it because obviously abroad has very different laws to UK/ eu etc..and she has been gluttened as she calls it several times and spent days in bed but she likes her travel and knows the risks. They also go back to places abroad they know are gluten free friendly but she also knows herself what she can and cannot eat.and always says its good if the cafe/restaurant say they don't guarantee cross contamination
..what's worse these days is cafes /restaurants having gluten free seprate menus and not potentially sticking to that!

I was the PP who mentioned manufacturers adding nuts. (Not making any point, I can never follow who says what on here.)

The problem with this case is that the barista didn't comply with best practice - if she had, the wee girl would have enjoyed her soya milk hot chocolate and gone to the dentist.

Not every setting can eliminate cross contamination of every allergen - but no cafe or restaurant should be serving someone a cup of their allergen after the allergy was declared.

Cross contamination risks are nuanced - the risk varies from setting to setting and person to person. But this case is nothing to do with cross contamination.