Do you judge/ pity converts to Islam?

[Candyapplesandhearts]

Firstly I’m a convert to Islam. White European, so more than likely if you saw me you’d assume I was a convert, plus my name would definitely give the game away.

i live in a metropolitan area where converts are yes rare but not too too share whereby it’s shocking.

well keeping this in mind, I bought a block of sessions for a beauty treatment, and the aesthetician was visibly taken back by me firstly, fine it happens because I wasn’t what she was expecting, with my name and I show up in a headscarf.

but the questions, not only were they pretty inappropriate but also steeped in judgment. I was shocked. I could tell that she wasn’t necessarily being malicious or even hateful, but she clearly had a very pre conceived notion about my motivations and my choices. Ie several questions about my husband and how he made me convert, or as she said ‘become Islamic’, lots on clothing and how she often feels sorry for a lot of Muslim women.

truthfully MN, is this a thing? Deep down are these thoughts people have but maybe don’t voice.

in general even at work I do have questions asked but they are more diplomatically phrased- so now I’m wondering am I actually being judged/ pitied?

Yes… this is the issue. My polemics are pretty much standard undergraduate gender / feminist studies aka mainstream

There are Muslim countries like Malaysia where this doesn't happen. Even singapore has sharia law (for inheritance and marriage) but equally also has freedom of religion
My friend is Muslim turned atheist and he has a very obvious Muslim name but he was enjoying beers in Malaysia! And at a local store too!

Of course I'm aware that in the UK and other places, women aren't forced by the police to wear hijabs. The OP said there was no freedom of choice as did others and that is what I was arguing about.

Sammy Davis Junior was black and Jewish. He used to joke that he would never be allowed in any club that the rest of the Rat Pack had automatic access to. Indeed, he wouldn't get into any clubs dominated by WASPS!

I think many MNers and others would be very surprised about how much ultra-orthodox women and subjected and subdued; having to wear wigs, 'practical' clothing, are unclean during menstruation and childbirth, are separated from men in many religous and social events...
Few secular Jews marry out
Few socialise with Goys
Orthodox men won't use contraception because 'it may damage the seed...', so that's down to women
Most religions keep the woman in 'their place'

No I said that no choices is a totally free choice. The point that no choice is made in a vacuum

Some choices are definitely much more free than others.

No you said there's no such thing as freedom of choice which is clearly wrong unless you're living in a police state or dictatorship.

Candyapplesandhearts · Today 08:14
but even if she believes she’d get a punishment or more likely she believes Allah wants her to wear it, she’s still choosing. You may not like or agree with her motivation but it’s still a choice. There’s no such thing as a free choice

20% of secular Jews marry out in the UK and its quite low in the UK compared to other countries, suspect its because of university Jewish societies, state funded Jewish schools (just like state funded CofE schools) and cheap trips to Israel (easyjet flights!) this facilitates young people pairing up with Jewish people early.

In Europe and the USA, intermarriage is most prevalent among Jews identifying as secular or 'Just Jewish': nearly 70% of secular Jews in the USA and almost 50% in Europe are married to non-Jews.

https://www.thejc.com/news/community/intermarriage-among-british-jews-lower-than-rest-of-community-outside-israel-figures-show-h3k9xgjv

I socialize mainly with jewish people but its not because i dislike non jewish people, my parents are non jewish! I think its cos we live in the same areas go to the same schools.

not sure about the unclean part, they just don't sleep in the same bed, they often have two single beds that they separate. my DH says for my MIL, it meant her husband slept on a matresss on the floor during her time of the month while she got the bed lol.

You can't have it both ways, OP. Either the 'Daily Mail adjacent' attitude to Islam is rife, or it isn't. If there isn't a huge problem with how Islam gels with modern society, how come so many people are 'Islamophobic'?

the same way many people are antisemitic.

yes there is no such thing as a free choice. Ie no choice occurs in a vacuum. That is the same thing. When I said no choice that was referring to choice in the general sense not just that impact Muslim women who wear the veil

The same reason that some people are racist, and how up to the 20th century so many people were anti semitic

Probably because people have seen what happens when angry Muslims turn on their own society. Fundamentalist Judaism hasn't played out so violently in the West, though arguably more so in the Middle East.

@Runsyd does that mean there's a problem with women since so many people are mysoginistic?

Are they though? Are many non-Muslim British people antisemitic? I have literally never come across one who is, though I've come across plenty of racists who are concerned about skin colour. I do think antisemitism is a growing problem with the younger, more British woke kids who've been indoctrinated by 'progressive values' at uni. The recent marches have been very alarming in that respect.

Misogyny can be present in both sexes. Just as there's self-hating gay people. It's how those attitudes play out in wider society that is the problem. So OP says that Islam is peace-loving and inclusive and so on, but that's not how it has been playing out in Western society, and people are reacting against that.

Well this thread is a good display of how people reject those who are religious and British jewish people who are outwardly jewish would be religious.

When my Dh was a kid in London children from the local Catholic school would throw stones at him. I don't know if they were 'woke'or had progressive values. They just knew dh was different.

I think your argument is confused OP. Nothing happens in a vacuum refers to incidents which couldn't happen in isolation. For example, a mass shooting in the US couldn't happen without lax gun laws or the bullying the shooter was subjected to etc Many factors come into such events.

Sunak said that when keir starmer stopped work early on Friday for Friday night dinner with his family, he would be a part time PM.

To me and many Jewish people this is an attack on our faith. Many of us do face difficulty getting time off for our religious festivals hence the higher percentage of us who are self employed or who work for nhs/civil service. Statements like this do not help those of us who are employed in the private sector.

Yes, I can see that kids from Hasidic communities would have a more difficult time. But around half my friends are Jewish and often I haven't even realised until they mentioned it in passing. I think this is what people are driving at when they complain about people not integrating. Most Jewish people in the West are so well integrated that it's a non issue. They're as British or French or American as anyone else, and aren't demanding that society changes to fit their views/religion. People don't feel that Muslims are embracing secularisation in the same way.

@cupcaske123 I suggest you have a read on the feminist board on here. No it doesn't just refer to mass shootings and similar incidents.

It's often used in discussions about makeup, clothing, shaving habits, being a SAHM etc. all kinds of choices basically. It's also said a lot when discussing Islam and women's attire as a counter argument to "what about women who choose to wear a veil." These are discussions and terms that have been going round for years. If OP has had even minimal exposure to these schools of thoughts and debates , it would become part of her vernacular too. Not because she's Muslim.

You're either not familiar with it (fair enough) or deliberately "confused".

No it doesn’t, choice doesn’t occur in a vacuum refers to the plethora of tiny little things that inform every choice we make from the major to the teeny tiny.

Shame on Sunak then. What a ridiculous thing to say.

something like 30% of Jewish kids go to Jewish schools and most Jewish schools are modern orthodox, so the kids would wear skullcaps (kippah) as part of the school uniform, though most of them are not religious at all. they would go to eat at fried chicken shops after school despite the school telling them they shouldn't go to non kosher restaurants (DH is 34 so this is probably massively out of date).

I think it is perception. Secular Jewish people who send their kids to non Jewish schools would naturally not be as religious. Religious Jewish people like my MIL only live in very few places, she actually refused to move out of NW london when she had 3 children in a 1 bed flat and waited until she could afford to upgrade to a terraced house; she worked from home too at that time so there was really no reason other than her religion to live in London. You wouldn't encounter her in Bristol or Guildford. So the vast majority of people who dont live in these Jewish areas like Finchley or Golders Green or Stamford Hill wouldn't encounter this pretty significant population of Jewish people who live in those areas to access the communal facilities required for their religion- mikveh, synagogue, schools, kosher supermarkets.

Religious muslims seem to be able to live in most big cities on the other hand. So we see them more and they seem to send their kids to mainstream schools. hardly any orthodox Jewish people would do that.

I think the percentage of truly orthodox people would still be in the minority, not talking about people who belong to an orthodox synagogue but actually keep shabbat, wear wigs/skullcaps in daily life, keep kosher so strictly they can't eat with non Jewish people (my MIL isn't even in this category, she would happily eat with you in an indian vegetarian restaurant in London/wetherspoons in the countryside/any restaurant with vegetarian options abroad). I suspect its the same for muslims too....I mean thinking about it my MIL is orthodox, but her daughters both lived with men before marrying them! though my MIL constantly wistfully says she hopes they would get engaged but i dont think they factor in her opinion much as to when they want to get married.