I am going to be the companion from hell on this holiday

[Plasticfoot]

Stop me!

I'm a fairly experienced mountain walker, something I did a lot with DH until he died. I haven't been since.

This summer, a group of my fittest friends have decided to climb a big one. They're fit, it's well within their capabilities, but I don't think they realise quite how hard it will be and they don't know mountains.

I'm really struggling to convince them about the kit they'll need, or the planning the route needs, the fact that the weather (visibility) matters or that navigation isnt just a matter of following the path. Some are even talking about taking beer up with them.

I've done this mountain a couple of times before, a tough challenge but straightforward in good weather. People die on it though and I've turned back when the weather turned, as it does in the mountains.

I can already feel I'm getting on people's nerves. I know I do worry, but there are reasons for that.

Currently I'm trying to tell them we can't fix a certain day for the climb, we'll need to look at the weather forecast closer to the time and be ready to go next day, if it looks OK, which seems normal to me and will make for a safer, more enjoyable trip. No one's getting it. I'm getting frustrated and they think I'm being bossy and overdramatic.

Yep, watching Lake District Rescue, there are lots of calamities on the fells.

Most people who go up mountains are fine. The weather holds out, and they do not go up to late to be caught out there in the dark. But some of those people would have got into real trouble if the weather had turned.

A group of very experienced mountain walking friends got into serious difficulty on a mountain in summer two years ago when sudden extreme weather descended. It ended with two people getting separated from the others towards the end of the day with very little phone battery and a rescue ensuing.

The problem with your friends is they're not just being cavalier with their own safety but the safety of the rescuers who potentially have to come after them.

Because they think the lack of snow, the relatively low altitude, and relatively mild climate at sea level mean they can swan up the mountains and down again in grossly inadequate gear, and be back at the pub by 6.

They have no idea about navigating in dense and cold fog, strong, bitter wind, or along patches of scree or mountain bog. Many are seriously unfit.

Stats from Scotland Mountain Rescue in 2022:

'The total number of independent incidents in 2022 was 636.
Of these, 330 (52%) were related to mountaineering (this includes hillwalking,
scrambling, rock climbing, winter climbing, and MRT activity).
The total number of separate team activations or “call-outs” was 843, or 906
including “continuations” (linked call-outs on different days).
This is an average of 2.5 per day, including continuations. At least one team
was called out on 281 days this year, and on the busiest day of Sunday 26TH June 2022 there were 15 activations of teams.

'Where available, the weather conditions recorded at the time of the incident are
detailed below. Most incidents occurred during fine weather.'

'In 2022 Scottish Mountain Rescue teams were called out 843 times to 636 incidents. These involved 21 deaths, with 11 of them mountaineering accidents. '

www.scottishmountainrescue.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/SMR_Statistics_Report_2022_v4.pdf

But it’s THEIR choice. Their choice to be unprepared. I’ve known people walk up snowdon in flip flops and be fine. Because it’s not that hard, I could probably do it, I wouldn’t because my choice is to be prepared but their choice isn’t. They don’t want some anxious Debbie downer moaning on to them like children. So she needs to back out and leave them be. If it goes wrong they should have listened but in all likelihood it’ll be fine because hills in the U.K. aren’t very big or difficult

And apparently an increasing number of people ascend mountains or large hills using phones to navigate. Then they lose a signal and are lost.

@rainbowunicorn I think you are the dim one. I didnt say you cant get into trouble on mountains other than Everest did I? It was literally the first response to the OPs post ..asking..in a tongue in cheek way ..where she was going and intended to be a light hearted quip.

How many times? UK mountains are not benign and it’s not their own safety they need to consider, it is the people they expect to come and rescue them if it goes wrong. Have a read of the linked report a few posts above yours.

Seems a lot of responsibility for you OP.

Which mountain is it?

OP has said it's not Ben Nevis. However, there are lots of Scottish mountains which pose a tougher challenge than Ben Nevis. Partly because they are climbed less often. I'm sure the same will be true in England and Wales.

The most common cause of death and injury in the Scottish mountains is simply tripping. I had a friend who had to be rescued by helicopter from the Lairig Ghru - he put his foot into a hollow where it got stuck and his forward motion caused him to fall breaking his leg. He was well equipped but if it was raining, cold and he had been under-dress/without emergency shelter he could easily have development hypothermia before alerting someone to get help (no mobile signal).

@Delphiniumandlupins
OP has said it's not Ben Nevis. However, there are lots of Scottish mountains which pose a tougher challenge than Ben Nevis. Partly because they are climbed less often. I'm sure the same will be true in England and Wales
I know that. I was answering someone who said that people die on Nevis ' all the time'

Have you walked it? Unless going up in terrible weather whilst going off track there's not any way of getting into danger. Its a simple clear path.

It may be a clear path, but picking the right route off the summit and avoiding the many dangerous gullies can be tricky. To say there’s not any way of getting into danger on the Ben, or indeed any mountain in Scotland is naive at best - mountain rescue stats bear that out.

Besides it’s not just about avoiding death, it’s about enjoying the day whatever gets thrown at you. Being half way up a mountain in a summer squall isn’t necessarily fun but it’s much less fun if you’re in it wearing running kit with wet feet and blisters. Being well prepared is about safety and enjoyment.

Last time I was up on the road to Glen Coe near the junction to the road down to Etive there were helicopters out looking for someone This was in June and about 8 years ago. I don't think it was the ending we all hoped for

They can consider whatever they please. Like the people who drink and drive without consideration for others lives they endanger. Bottom line is they don’t want to hear it. So she needs to back off

DH is a mountain walker and takes all his kit and weather conditions very seriously. I must admit it can be a bit off putting listening to him as he does have a tendency to drone on about it, but he is obviously very safe, so maybe email with suggested kit list is the way to go rather than engaging in further discussion.

I've also had the scenario where I turned back from a route up Snowdon - the easiest path cannot remember which - as there was snow and ice and my hiking boots had worn out and lost their grip. Astonishingly as I made my way back I did encounter people in fashion trainers and yes flip-flops asking if they would be ok to get to the top, despite warnings about winter weather near the top being displayed at the car park. So yes people can be idiots.

I think what I'd probably do OP is leave it for now. You have said your piece and flagged your concerns. I would get a detailed weather summary the day before and take a decision on if you personally are going based on that. I'd then say to everyone else what your thoughts are based on that weather forecast at the time.

Yes, it is their choice to put themselves in danger because they are idiots. However it is not acceptable that their choice then puts mountain rescue, paramedics and police at risk. Your immature debbie downer attitude and the statement that hill's in the UK arent that big or difficult just show you to be ill informed at best.

Are you an experienced hillwalker?

Yes. The majority of deaths on Scottish mountains are not on Ben Nevis.

I have just had a look at the Mountain Rescue annual reports for Scotland for the last couple of years. I had no idea they were called out so often, though not always for mountaineering incidents

I just wouldn't take 'em.

I once made the error of taking two friends for a wander to Red Tarn beneath Helvellyn and I really shouldn't have. I grew up playing there as a kid, so foolishly thought as it was at the time as familiar to me as the back of my own hand, we'd be ok...

Id had to talk the bossy, domineering one out of attempting Striding Edge. I have done it once as a child with my parents, I knew I was not up to it (early stages of my Ehlers Danlos really taking hold) and suspected she wasn't and knew the third party wasn't either...

I'd had to explain about bringing the right kit, how the weather changes etc but then of course Mrs Bossy decided as we weren't actually going up Helvellyn, it was simply a walk in the park and she showed up with fuck all, and didnt admit this until we got there and she just marched off.

We did all survive, but the clouds just dropped when we were at Red Tarn, absolutely zero vis and we had to wait it out.

She had no food (she ate her chocolate bar three strides out of the carpark and thats all she'd brought), a crappy fashion jacket, trainers with those stupid little liner socks and a half drunk bottle of diet coke.

She then gets bored of waiting for the weather to lift (We had hours of daylight left to wait it out and it was clearing slowly) and tried to charge off on a 'short cut' (which wasn't it was simply a heavily used sheep track) and almost immediately twisted her ankle.

I made her stick her foot in the tarn to stop the swelling which caused all manner of dramatics because there were GERMS in there (riiiiiiight) and and and...

Im getting flashbacks just thinking about it. I sort of wish I'd let her yeet herself off Striding Edge tbh!

The other girl, a very quiet sort and much dominated by the bossy one, then let Mrs Bossy eat all her lunch, had a big blood sugar crash halfway back and I nearly had to carry the both of them back. I got a bit shouty at that point I have to admit.

Never ever again (Well it couldn't happen anyway as that part of the world is not wheelchair friendly!)

No one has claimed anything different.

All this talk about 'it's not the Himalayas' is exactly why people get into difficulties on hills and mountains in the UK. They think it's straightforward - which it is most of the time - but it doesn't hurt to prepare for a sprain or a slip or bad weather.

I know someone who volunteers for Mountain Rescue in the Brecons. The times his partner ends up putting food back in the oven or has nights out cancelled at the last minute is ridiculous.

He's had people slip because they are walking in trainers with no grip, one person decided to try to get down as mist descended (and descended too fast off the side of a rock so had to be stretched off), people have been caught in 'unexpected' rain having not checked the forecast and have had no jacket or warm clothes so have got stuck as the temperature dropped and dusk began to fall. And there are plenty that needed rescuing because they underestimated how long it would take to climb up so ended up coming back in half light or less then get stuck in the dark. And every time he's and his team have to go up in the dark or in the wet or get someone off a ledge rather than a well trodden path, they put their lives in danger. If you can't get down because the weather changed, they'd prefer to not have to hike up the mountain in that weather either (or get on the end of a rope to get you off a ledge or carry a stretcher up and you and it down again).

Of course, for every one they've had to save, any number have been on the Brecons with no jackets, in trainers (or worse) and have had a hair raising but safe descent as night fell or the weather worsened. Not everyone in hazardous situations dies, just as some people who are very experienced can get into difficult through one misplaced foot. But it's daft to assume walking up a mountain or even a very large hill is the same as walking in the park or a local wood. Just like swimming in the sea is likely to be a bit more challenging than in your local pool.

Muriel Grey, the Scottish journalist is/was also a Munro bagger (Scottish mountain climber) in the 80s/90s. She wrote a book and in it, even though she is highly experienced and very sensible, mentioned the time she decided to walk the Cairngorms. She said she did the one thing she tells everyone not to do - she carried on walking when a mist came down. It lifted just in time for her to see she had a metre or so to go before the cliff edge. It's really easy for accidents to happen - you don't have to help them on the way.

It is quote obvious that it's not a lighthearted post though. The vast majority of responders to the post recognised this. Maybe learn how to read the room.