Parents of boys- what are we doing to break the cycle of entitlement and patriarchy?

[datcherygrateful]

I want to raise my son who is a teenager, to
-not grow up into an entitled man
-to eventually understand the patriarchal system that has propped many men up and supressed women and so understand and appreciate equity vs equality in relationships.
-Respect women
-Be fully functional and so won't weaponize any incompetence in his relationships.
-Have emotional intelligence and maturity
-Be emotionally available
-Be able to emotionally regulate
-Be grounded
-Communicate openly
-Understand nuance
-Align his words with actions; lives with integrity.
-Be an active listener to his future partner and children
-Advocate and stand up when a friend or peer say or do something misogynistic.

Curious to know if there are any things you have been doing, in small doses maybe, that you picked up on from your own lived experience, things that you have vowed to do or say (or not) when raising your boys

I'm generally frustrated by a lot of the threads on this site where unfortunately too little progress is made. Cycles are repeating no matter how kind we think we raise our little boys to be. Women are still bearing the brunt and the things that too many women are experiencing are shocking and it's happening to women in their 20's and 30's; so very young still. I don't want to propagate or be complicit.

In terms of small steps or micro forms or doses, what are we all doing to plant the seeds of change?

My son is only 2.5 so I've not implemented much of this yet.

But I will explicitly talk to him about these things. I think that's the biggest factor is pointing out the patriarchy and the sexism in daily life. When you're not the one affected by it, it can be easy to not notice it or not realise how bad it is. It's the unintentional sexism that's as impactful as the overt.

I also chose my partner with this in mind, partly. I have never seen him indulge in sexism, laddish behaviour, violence, weaponised incompetence, controlling behaviour, taking "me" time at my expense etc. He sees us as true equals and that is reflected in his behaviour every day, which our son will grow up watching. I will explicitly point out to our son what his father models to him and how it makes me feel.

And of course, he'll be expected to be a fully independent adult who can look after himself and his home. It will be emphasised that all members of the household do their bit.

I told my ds(4) he had to get his own spoon if he wanted one at dinner last night. It's the small things.

I’m not sure.

You might be teaching him that if someone he is eating with needs something, then the appropriate response is “get it yourself”.

Anyway. OP all the behaviour you describe needs to be modelled by you and his dad. Then, it’s part of the fabric of life.

I think it's just as important to raise girls with belief in equality etc as it is boys.

For instance, my mother always told me that I should be an air hostess or a nursery school teacher as those were 'acceptable' jobs for girls... whereas my father always told me that I can do anything I wanted in life!

And my teenaged son always smiles when he sees me at weekends wielding a drill/chainsaw/random blokey tool, and recently said that I am an excellent example of equality and feminism - which I took as a compliment. He helps around the house and cooks etc so hopefully he'll be a decent adult...

Eh??

The most important thing is to show him you view men and boys positively, as well as women and girls. Honestly, if he gets a message from you that men are a bit shit, he is going in his teenage years to be lured by the message of the Andrew Tates of this world, who have been successful as they are positive about boys and men, and positive about what your son can achieve in his life.

It is a balancing act, I do want my boys to understand basic feminist issues, to have that awareness, but I am also very keen they know that I view men positively. I am working hard on this message now they are heading to tweenage years.

Model being a good person who has all those attributes you want them to have.

If you are lucky enough to have positive male roles models in their life, that will be invaluable.

Oh, and do the Culture Reframed course on talking to boys about pornography.

Modern pornography is a huge step back in terms of men respecting women and seeing them as truly equal, imo.

I married a decent man who truly has done everything I've done both house and child care wise infact he changed his job when we had our ds as I was the main earner but worked shifts .He also just respects people and doesn't tolerate anyone who doesn't. I expect this behaviour as well .My bil is so different but we won't put up with his casual crap.
My ds has ended up exactly the same cos that's what he knows .
I'm not bragging I'm so saddened by some of the posts I read and how behaviours are accepted .

I'm fully aware that @IdLikeToBeAFraser , @datcherygrateful, @CurlewKate, @OnionPond and others would blame all aspects of sexism on the patriarchy.

The original question was asking how to bring up a boy and I suggested avoiding the term "patriarchy". Many feminists, (not all feminists) use the term as a lazy catch all way to blame men for all aspects of sexism.

It's a bit odd to say my initial comment was "part of the patriarchy" and to accuse me of being "programmed to worry more about men", OP was specifically asking about how to raise boys, so I replied with that in mind. Boys may not be receptive to biased, factually inaccurate, feminist viewpoints that blame men for all of society's woes, and don't acknowledge how sexism hurts men too.

@datcherygrateful specifically said in response to me "It's not because women are doing any of this.", @OnionPond said it's "not something women impose on men." they're both specifically blaming men, for all the aspects of our sexist society I mentioned.

Women are part of society and do reinforce society's sexist views. Sexist views are echoed by women on mumsnet and twitter, and on dating sites and I've repeatedly encountered them from women IRL. Personally I feel I've encountered more sexism from women than men. Blaming all sexism on "patriarchy" neglects women's roles in perpetuating it.

If none of the above convinces you that the term "patriarchy" may not be well received by a boy, I also hate the word because I can't spell it.

@FrazzledQuoka I think the issue with your analysis is that you think "patriarchy" means "men". It doesn't. A patriarchy is a society which is set up so that most power, economic, political and societal is in the control of men as a class. Not individual men. Men as individuals are often as damaged by the system as women are. And of course women as individuals can benefit from colluding with the system. When people like you say "Look at these awful things that happen to men!" you are helping to make the point. It's a crap system. It needs to be changed. The problem is that men are inclined to blame women and demand that women make it better, be nicer, kinder, stop using nasty words that might make men feel bad. They tend not to accept a share of the responsibility for improving things. Often because, frankly, in broad terms it's a system that works well for men as a class, despite a little "collateral damage". Which the system is largely geared up to blame women for!

There are lots of good suggestions here. I’m going to add siding with the oppressed outside of the family and in general as a good example for boys.

A lot of what’s toxic in contemporary masculine culture is the idea that winners are celebrated and losers are, well, losers.

It’s all very well raising capable boys who contribute within their own team (family) but they also need to be capable of empathy with those less fortunate than themselves, in my opinion, to become good men.

We try to talk in our family about our good fortune (We earn below average) and discuss world issues, local problems, inequalities etc. regularly at home, and try to keep judgement of others to a minimum.

@FrazzledQuoka you don't raise boys to understand and reject the patriarchy, including the bits that negatively impact them, by avoiding talking about it. Point out how it negatively impacts boys and men as much as girls, absolutely. But you can't just ignore the issue.

Threads like this often seem to stutter to a halt and I always wonder why. Is it too difficult to talk about? Or do we think there's nothing we can do? Or do we think there isn't a problem? Or isn't there a problem?

I have taught my son about respect, consent and the concerns of porn.

He doesn't agree with porn!

I'm a feminist and I married a man who is an excellent role model.

My son cooks, cleans, knows how to do his laundry and irons. He probably does more than his younger sister (she's a work in progress).

He understands that he is physically stronger than women and to act accordingly.

He is emotionally intelligent.

He is a tender, caring boy (he's 17). A single girl called him one night at 04:30 hrs to pick her up in the middle of nowhere having been abandoned by a taxi company. He went!

He walks his female friends home. He looks after his drunk female friends and makes sure they get home ok.

He's a good lad, but it's always a work in progress. He's off to Uni soon and I wonder what influences he'll meet.

He’ll be fine. And nice girls will love him! You have raised a wonderful young man. As a mother of daughters I thank you! (And my son was very similar btw!) ☺️

I do know what Patriarchy means. I'm just suggesting the use of the term is unhelpful and will alienate some boys as while it means what you say, it is also used by other people including those in this thread to blame everything on men.

The use of the term Patriarchy is also unhelpful as
a) it defines the problem as some form of battle between sexes,
b) there's merit in claiming that we live in a society where men are in charge
c) "in broad terms it's a system that works well for men as a class, despite a little "collateral damage". "

a) I don't think it's helpful defining it as a battle between sexes - I care about all people and people in my family in particular - male and female.
b) Boys, especially boys of separated parents live in a matriarchy.
c) The system is demonstrably not working well for boys - lower education levels, higher death rates....

You could debate if it works well for men (higher wages, but shorter lonelier lives) but I don't want to, it's not a competition, sexism hurts us all.

@FrazzledQuoka one point in your post leaped out at me.

"Boys, especially boys of separated parents live in a matriarchy"

They absolutely don't. They might live in a home with just women, but that does not mean they live in a matriarchal society. And if they live without male role models it is usually because their fathers have opted out of parenting.

That is such an interesting comment. I didn't marry a good man. I guess that makes me stupid.

I think there is less we can do as individuals as some people think. I've done my best with my boys but the influence I have on them as teenagers is so much less than it used to be. They both speak highly of Andrew Tate (I think/hope mainly to get a reaction from me!) but knowing what I think/feel about things does not mean that they'll share my views. We disagree on loads of stuff.
I think the best answer is if good men call out other men every single time. Then it will get easier for more good men to do this.
I don' t think it should be assumed that men with awful views got them because their parents did not do enough to influence them, parents are just one part of it all.

@Nicelynicelyjohnson "I think the best answer is if good men call out other men every single time. Then it will get easier for more good men to do this."

I so agree with this!

I am increasingly thinking that part of it needs to be to find a peer group for them that has the values you want to suggest (outside school - at a club they do a lot, or with playing with cousins with similar family values etc).

We home educate atm but my son has been in and out of school throughout primary and I have been absolutely astounded at the differences between the class peers and the home ed children in terms of socialisation.
As early as Year 3/4 (so, age 7-8) the schooled children were heavily divided by gender, a sub-set of the girls had started boys/skincare and meanly excluding other girls as babyish if they weren't yet interested, and the boys were sharing sexual terms and Andrew Tate stuff ('chads' etc) and using these to silence the girls in class, as well as being homophobic by using threats of being treated as "gay" to keep the boys in line (coming from a subset of boys who then imposed it all aggressively on the others). None of them would play outside their year group and the boys were all very competitive to the point where kindness to a friend etc were seized on as weakness.
By contrast, the Home Ed primary aged children seem vastly better socialised! They will play together happily in a large mixed-age/mixed-sex pack, there is no sexualisation at all (until puberty hits and you start to get hormone-driven crushes etc), if they fall out they might shout "it's not fair" and walk away but they don't start a campaign of exclusion or homophobia etc, they are interested in youtube/computer games/influencers etc but still openly play with toys, they will talk to adults as people. They also don't seem to get exposed to stuff aimed at older children as much as in school - very very few home ed children will watch 12-rated movies/games aged 8, whereas a significant minority of the schooled ones seem to have had those since 5 and have moved onto being totally unrestricted by mid-KS2.

I'm not sure what a parent can do to fight against the influence of the school peer group if it is so pervasive and starts so young, especially if (in the case of boys) it comes with an intrinsic "you don't have to listen to your mum about anything, she's at best dumb and at worst actively trying to suppress you". I think it has to come from peers as well.

@Nicelynicelyjohnson "I don' t think it should be assumed that men with awful views got them because their parents did not do enough to influence them, parents are just one part of it all."

However, I don't think it's really about men with awful views. I think it's more about perfectly mainstream acceptable views that many good men hold without thinking. In the 1790s, feminists talked about consciousness raising. Maybe it's time for consciousness raising groups for men!

I agree with you OP.

There are a few examples on this thread of posters who are quick to say “well we share the domestic work” the implication being that domestic work is beneath you as a modern liberated woman and by sharing the load you are making things equal - without any actual thought behind why work which was traditionally associated with women is looked down on , and still is. (Even in this thread !)

Being able to complete household chores is something every adult should be able to do, and once in a family unit then the spilt should be fair according to the circumstances, but framing it as ‘my husband is a feminist as we share the domestic load’ completely misses the point.

I have to outsource some of my domestic work and I would be ashamed of myself if I ever caught myself thinking of it as ‘grunt work’ !

Just this really, no mollycoddling or over praise for doing the basics, like bringing his dishes to the sink... his dad isn't a peach but my son has enough good people around to knock off a few edges off but this would be true no matter his sex

Also (preparing for things to be thrown at me!) if you dig down into the "We share the domestic work" couples it's often not as clear cut as that. Always worth asking who does the nit combing, buys presents for kids birthday parties and keeps the loos clean on a daily basis.