Parents of boys- what are we doing to break the cycle of entitlement and patriarchy?

[datcherygrateful]

I want to raise my son who is a teenager, to
-not grow up into an entitled man
-to eventually understand the patriarchal system that has propped many men up and supressed women and so understand and appreciate equity vs equality in relationships.
-Respect women
-Be fully functional and so won't weaponize any incompetence in his relationships.
-Have emotional intelligence and maturity
-Be emotionally available
-Be able to emotionally regulate
-Be grounded
-Communicate openly
-Understand nuance
-Align his words with actions; lives with integrity.
-Be an active listener to his future partner and children
-Advocate and stand up when a friend or peer say or do something misogynistic.

Curious to know if there are any things you have been doing, in small doses maybe, that you picked up on from your own lived experience, things that you have vowed to do or say (or not) when raising your boys

I'm generally frustrated by a lot of the threads on this site where unfortunately too little progress is made. Cycles are repeating no matter how kind we think we raise our little boys to be. Women are still bearing the brunt and the things that too many women are experiencing are shocking and it's happening to women in their 20's and 30's; so very young still. I don't want to propagate or be complicit.

In terms of small steps or micro forms or doses, what are we all doing to plant the seeds of change?

@SallyWD "
I have to agree with this. I'm raising a girl and a boy and I'm really focusing on teaching them to be kind and considerate. I'm raising them both the same way. "

The problem here is that society at large will back you up in bringing up your dd to be kind and considerate. She will get lots of praise for being that way and she will have lots of role models. That's not the same for boys. Boys actually have to buck the societal trend to be part of the change in e want to see.

I wanted to add that although I appreciate the value of good male role models I was struck by the attitude of a group of young men (17-20 ish) who I sat with this year at an event. We were chatting about Mother's Day, all four of them had grown up with absent fathers. All four of them were touchingly admiring of their own mum and very protective of her. They spoke of how amazing their mums were and how much they respected them. I had the impression they knew full well that their mum's had been treated badly and as women were fighting an uphill struggle in many ways. Somehow I can't imagine these young men not having strong feminist values or following in their father's footsteps.

Sure. But women being feminists doesn't make boys into incels. which is what these comments were about.

Yet the statistics will say they are more likely to follow what their father did

I haven't rtft but my two penny's worth is

From day one I've been helping my son be a good man.
No lectures. Just age appropriate guidance (evolving all the time), idea seed planting and consistent role modelling from me and his dad on all the principles that underpin being a good human.

There is nothing in being a good person that a man and boy can't understand or get behind, it's just, sadly, so often the expectations aren't applied to boys (I.e boys can act out anger with more lenience given, boys aren't expected to share nicely at all times). Especially lacking is the expectation that they should deeply understand the full range of nuanced emotions, have self awareness of all those emotions and... Crucially... Manage all those emotions well.

So...
He's been taught body autonomy and how it's important we all respect each other's and no relationship can be a happy one if that isn't happening. Basic consent concept from toddler age (ok if we take your jacket off now?) all the way through to the biggy - sexual consent - same principle!

That his needs and wishes are no more, but also no less, important than anyone elses and that what happens in any situation should always be a considered balance of everyone's needs and wishes. So when he was 2 that looked like teaching him to share toys well, now he's 14 it's adapted to issues like whether he can play loud music when his sister's doing homework etc (or vice versa)... but the principle is the same.

He has been taught, from the beginning, all the vocabulary he needs to describe all the emotions, not just happy or sad. Everything from envy to elation to regret to nostalgia to frustration to ambivalence... Etc etc

Not just recognise and be able to name it but also consider the best response and ways to handle it, not feel ashamed of a strong emotion but understand it, and it's power or joy.

He sees me and his dad share whatever needs doing. No blue jobs or pink jobs (! 🥴🤯 !)

We (his parents) don't hide discontent or conflict, we take them to each other calmly and resolve it constructively, he sees those conversations (no adult topics of course) and sees both parties being heard and listening.

Always the expectations placed on him are equally placed on all of us in the house. No extra respect because we're grown ups (though we do expect respect - we just give it too), no patience expected from one but not the other... Nothing that implies he must do something, or, is off the hook due to his being male.

We've taught him to take criticism well. By making sure criticism is constructive and given for the purpose of making things better not embarrassing him or shaming him. I.e if he's washing up and I'm drying we have a common goal - clean dishes - so if I spot a bit missed he will redo and not take it personally. He's been taught the value of (for want of a better word) quality control, so 'criticism' is about improving what we're all doing. He gives me criticism if relevant and I appreciate him doing it, I'm not above reproach, same for his dad. His ego is now not so fragile it can't take feedback basically... Which is one of the massive issues you see come up on the relationship boards time and again when a man can't take it and doesn't want to hear it if their partner has something they want to raise and discuss with them. Being able to hear a complaint is so important... As if complaining well... Both are skills.

I have always used things that come up on TV or whatever to drop in concepts without needing to lecture or make him pay attention, just a 'hm interesting, that's a bit of a xyz situation isn't it...' type remark.

I draw his attention from time to time to the fact that when things are going wrong in the adult world it is often because at least one of the adults involved is not handling their emotions very well.

Basically he's empowered to understand and navigate with skill all the complexities of human relationships as deeply as a human can.

I do all this with his sister too.

He often knows I'm upset and need a hug before I do, his family and teachers all love him cos he's a genuinely decent person, and he's just smashed his yr 9 English exam cos the assignment that came up was to write a piece on the ups and downs of relationships.

I think this is an area of parenting I'm most confident on and so far so good, (my oldest is only 14 though, but I'm hoping the groundwork laid will help us through the next few years).

Which is basically a longer version of what @octoberfarm said much more succinctly on page two. 🤣

I would like to think that I've installed good values in my DC but if I'm honest one DS is becoming entitled and it worries me, the other is not. I will continue to be a good role model and make them open minded. But we can only do our best as parents. No parent is 100% responsible for the actions of their child, they are people in their own right and will form their own world views.

I think the worst thing that can happen to any young person is to be made feel shame for who they are, that goes for their race, their sexuality, gender etc. Some posters on MN say such hateful things about men, I think it would be quite damaging for a teenage boy to read it. The argument here is always, 'but we only hate them because they hate us', but teenage boys don't, not yet and feeling that they are hated will only create those negative feelings. They need to know above all else they are loved and valued, only then is it possible to instil good moral values.

You are so right. They will be influenced by their peers, their ambitions, their interactions with the world around them. This will shape who they become. Parenting only provides the roots, it doesn't shape their branches.

I made sure I hadn't tethered myself to an entitled, unkind, absent or useless husband before we had kids. And we talk to them a lot. That's pretty much the bulk of it.

And I have lovely, relaxed, confident and helpful teen boys. So, it's either all the above or pure luck.

We have to change this attitude that all you have to do is love them and raise them to be kind. We need much more than that. And we absolutely have to stop the attitude that getting boys to think about misogyny and consent and the patriarchy is somehow making them "ashamed of having penises" We need to be raising men who can be proud of being men.

@CurlewKate agree, I draw attention to good men when we cross paths with them in real life or in entertainment.
Not constantly obviously, just in a natural way you might if you see something lovely. But noticing guys being fab people is part of the dialogue and applauding others (and your children) for all sorts of things is practising positive recognition.

I think it's important to see the person as an individual first, their sex after. Saying men do this or need that is silly and only creates more division. As women we don't want to start a war (newsflash, we will lose). The fact is there is a percentage of men who are entitled and sexist and have a personality type that makes them powerful, for whatever reason this type has perpetually risen to the top. Society needs to weed out these types and stop them gaining power. I don't know how but I guess we could start with calling out the bad behaviour and encouraging men to do so too. For example, too often men stand laughing at some vile misogynist joke when in fact they think the joker is an asshole but are afraid of being ridiculed themselves. So the 'good guys' need to be more empowered too, not just women. I do try to tell my son to not accept things he doesn't agree with and never let himself be bullied. I admire morally decent people, I talk up strong women but equally call out women who I don't agree with so he doesn't believe it's a pick a side world. I can't say if it will work!

As for emotional intelligence I don't know how to encourage this other than actively debating and talking about everything, always giving another perspective on things. Reading good literature helps, my DS1 sadly does not do this.

@Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong "I think it's important to see the person as an individual first, their sex after. Saying men do this or need that is silly and only creates more division"

Hmm. I agree that we have to treat people as individuals. However, we also have to be clear that there are ways men specifically behave that are damaging-and which are often condoned, ignored or not even noticed by society because they are so ingrained. We need to show our boys that things can be different. To be clear, this is about societal expectations as much as about individual behaviour. That's why it's not necessarily helpful to say "Bur the men I know aren't like that!"

So heartening to read ☺️@HysteriaOfTheWanderingWomb

This is brilliant!!!

You could stop using the term "patriarchy" for a start and perhaps consider asking if how you express views may be perceived as misandry?

Patriarchy is often used as a misandrist term to describe sexism in society, it is often used to focus on how "bad men" make problems for women. Sexism hurts everyone including men - if you've a son try to care for him and try to make him better equipped for life. Call out all sexism and spend some time saying how adversely it affects men, (also teach him empathy and how it affects women - but I know you'll do that). Consider checking "facts" for feminist bias nothing undermines a feminist case more than "facts" that are obviously false.

Men are more likely to suffer violence on the street than women.
For some demographics the gender pay gap is a myth or women earn more than men.
Men are more likely to kill themselves.
Society still expects men to be the main bread winner.
Much of society still expects men to take the lead dating.
Men seem more likely to be lonely.
Boys stop showing affection in public to their parents age 8 girls wait till they're teenagers.
Men are not expected or often allowed to take an equal role in childcare.
Objectification of men is more acceptable than of women.
Domestic abuse of men is still socially acceptable (and at times encouraged / facilitated by the state).
Misandrist stereotypes may be banned in UK adverts but they're still there in the culture.

These are all caused by the sexist tropes of Boy's don't cry, men are strong, women are carers. You could call these symptoms of the patriarchy, or you could just call them out as sexism - without getting hung up on some competition about which sex suffers more.

Well there’s literally no comparison between “which sex suffers more” is there 🙄

The things you list are effects of patriarchy, not something women impose on men.

@FrazzledQuoka What you're missing is that ALL those examples you give are symptoms of the patriarchy. Yes-men are more likely to suffer violence on the street. Violence perpetrated by men and fuelled by patriarchal societal conditioning and expectations. For example. The patriarchy's bad for men as well as women.

These are all because of the Patriarchal system though. It's not because women are doing any of this. Men are victims of the system they propped up too and I am hoping to break the cycle so that future generations of young men don't have to suffer the list that you mentioned.

Most of the list are down to lack of emotional intelligence, emotional maturity and emotional regulation.

I strongly believe breaking the cycle is not just about boys but about males setting an example to girls about what is and isn't acceptable behaviour

I don't have any brothers but my dad set an example to me about how i should be tested, what I was worth and when I married I choose someone who had similar beliefs. Therefore my children daughter & son have strong role models about relationships, self worth, respect, and most importantly how relationships are a partnership. My son cleans, does laundry, cooks and respects his girl friend

We also need to be careful we aren't setting the bar too low for men. "He cooks and does washing." Well done him.

I agree with you, however;

Be very careful regarding the nuance and emotional regulation. There are many, many people who struggle with these.

To an extent, these can be learned, but there is a large component that is just how you are born. I'm ND, so don't do emotional regulation well; it can be contained, but I was always going to have big feelings.

Reading emotions can be very hard for some people - their own and other people's. Part of it is learnt, but part of it is just how you are wired. It's a key feature of autism, and took me a very, very long time to learn. You don't have to be ND to have difficulty with this, and men are more likely to have difficulty with this than women are.

Finally, don't expect these skills to look the same in men as in women. They are often expressed differently. It can be a fine line between setting standards for boys, and punishing them because they don't behave like girls.

Personally I think it starts with role modelling real equality within the family unit. This isn't necessarily about earning power or who does what in the household but about the power dynamics within a family unit. It should be very clear to all members of the family unit that mum and dad have equal authority and equal power when making decisions.

@FrazzledQuoka As others have pointed out, your entire post and examples of harm to men and boys is all about the patriachy. I don't think anyone who has concerns about the patriachy is unaware that it's not great for many men either.

I don't quite know how to express this but it's like even just this example is part of the patriachy - you're programmed to worry more about men than women, even as a women, even when both are being harmed.