Parents of boys- what are we doing to break the cycle of entitlement and patriarchy?

[datcherygrateful]

I want to raise my son who is a teenager, to
-not grow up into an entitled man
-to eventually understand the patriarchal system that has propped many men up and supressed women and so understand and appreciate equity vs equality in relationships.
-Respect women
-Be fully functional and so won't weaponize any incompetence in his relationships.
-Have emotional intelligence and maturity
-Be emotionally available
-Be able to emotionally regulate
-Be grounded
-Communicate openly
-Understand nuance
-Align his words with actions; lives with integrity.
-Be an active listener to his future partner and children
-Advocate and stand up when a friend or peer say or do something misogynistic.

Curious to know if there are any things you have been doing, in small doses maybe, that you picked up on from your own lived experience, things that you have vowed to do or say (or not) when raising your boys

I'm generally frustrated by a lot of the threads on this site where unfortunately too little progress is made. Cycles are repeating no matter how kind we think we raise our little boys to be. Women are still bearing the brunt and the things that too many women are experiencing are shocking and it's happening to women in their 20's and 30's; so very young still. I don't want to propagate or be complicit.

In terms of small steps or micro forms or doses, what are we all doing to plant the seeds of change?

Well, in my own family, I have broken away from arranged marriages, religious strictures, intergenerational living, food habits and various other stuff that my mum believed in, but I don't, so I think I have done a fair bit.

I have two young boys.

I am keen my little boys grow up seeing both mother + father contributing equally to the household, ie. No stereotypical gender roles. Men are just as capable as women at cooking, cleaning, washing etc and I hope my boys will do the same when they grow up and settle down.

I am also keen they see their mum working hard and appreciate women can have good careers if they so desire.

I have three sons. My husband and I model the behaviour I want for them, just as we would for daughters. We both work, and split household work and childcare equally (and I do mean equally). I think carefully about how I address feminist issues with them in a way that doesn't support stereotyping.

And I hope that the outcome of this will contribute in some way to the feminist project.

But my sons are individuals in their own right, and deserve to be treated as such. They aren't scapegoats for all the men who can before them. And they aren't puppets for me to parade my values to the world.

I won't ever teach my sons that they are part of an oppressive patriarchy before they have even stepped out into the world. The problem of patriarchy is one for the grown ups. Shaming young boys with notions of some sort of original sin is just cruel.

Yes, this in spades!

Keep them away from organised religion. They all preach the same bollocks that god has decreed that men are worth more than women.

@Gelasring My sons asked me why there isn't an International Men's Day. I told them the other 364 days of the year are all International Men's Days.

International men's day is in November, I always remind the men when they complain about womens day 😅 they're free to celebrate men's day but theyd rather bitch about womens day

Do you underthink to this extent in all areas of your life?

Love this question. Key things in our household are:

• if someone says stop, you stop straight away. It doesn't matter if you think you're being funny/you were both messing around/they didn't mind before; as soon as the word stop is said, you stop. Discussions about bodily autonomy and feeling safe and respected.

• everyone in the house is an equal, and no one person should be expected to pick after everyone else. Ours are expected to clean up after themselves and help keep the house running smoothly (in an age appropriate way).

• emotional literacy and avoiding the "boys don't cry" mentality like the plague. Making sure they know how to discuss and express feelings/emotions.

• prioritizing kindness in a big way, and encouraging them to speak up in the face of inequality

• open conversations about situations where inequality is apparent. Engaging them in discussing the unfairness and seeking their thoughts helps deepen their understanding of the issues and inequality.

All good, but the issue here is that it is 2024, and we are STILL seeing women abused in relationships, bearing the brunt of emotional labour, taken the piss out of by her partner, more likely to stay at home, more likely to fall behind on a career ladder, more likely to be attacked in the streets or at the v least harassed, more likely to feel the wrath of her partner who doesn't know how to regulate his emotions. Too many women still feel lonely in their relationships because their partners don't hear them, are reluctant to seek help or communicate effectively, because they either don't care value enough or they don't have the tools to.

Many women aren't bothering with dating or entering relationships anymore because their standards have gone up, thankfully, and are complaining 'what's the point? the bar is in hell'. Women as young as in their 20's are saying this.
The whole thing is sad.

They don't see being in a relationship (with a man) as adding much value anymore, and reading threads on MN tell you that many women who have escaped or left a relationship do not want to entertain a man again, or want to live with or have their peace disturbed- they'd rather be single and cultivate healthy female friendships or community.

Aside form positive role models, I'm looking BEYOND the housework here, because if we think that healthy happy relationships are all about who does the cooking and cleaning we are royally screwed. Being able to cook a meal and clean after oneself is basic minimum- never should be gendered anyway.

I am looking at filling the gap that seems to be missing...

-emotional intelligence
-emotional maturity
-being able to communicate
-words and actions aligning
-being able to emotionally regulate

I know that women on MN complaining are not just complaining about men in their 60's and 70's who might have grown up with 'traditional' gender roles. Men in their 20's and 30's and 40's (all whom have grown up seeing their mum's off to work, Girl Power of 90's and all that, first and second wave of feminism etc). So much more needs to be done. It feels like a rinse repeat cycle.

And yes we need to empower little girls but that's a different thread.
More women are waking up, but there's much more I think that can be done. I don't think I'm overthinking, I am trying to be proactive.

I am not treating ant son as a criminal before he has done anything wrong, and this thinking assumes all girls should be treated as solely innocent victims who are perfect just for being female?

I treat any children I have as being a good person in their own right and be a good upstanding member of the human race regardless of sex

@JustRollWithIt " hear what you are saying, but your list seems so overthought. Just show him love and respect and good communication. Keep chatting, be friends. He will pick up positivity from all of that."

The problem here is it assumes that generations of women have not tried to do this. If it was that easy, we wouldn't have a problem.

@datcherygrateful children learn emotional regulation by having their needs met, listened to, soothed when needed.
They also need to be praised and celebrated as well being firm with behaviour that's not acceptable.
That goes for both boys and girls.

Focussing on emotions too much can also have a detrimental affect where anxiety and worries can be heightened and validation is seeked too often.

So even when we think incels are bad, we STILL think it's women's fault? Bollocks to that.

For us, absoluately - DH is playing a huge (most important?) role here in modelling positive behaviours, doing his bit etc. He's also actually stricter than me when it comes to how DS speaks to me/women. He actually tossed one of DS' friends out when the two boys behaved badly.

From my side - I absolutely expect him to do his bit around the house. There aren't excessive chores, but I'm unsympathetic to the whining about it and we're increasing the chores as we go.

Consequences - this is one DH is actually less good at. But I refuse to baby him. If he doesn't do something, I'm not rushing to fix the problem for him. If he doesn't want to do a chore, then there are consequences. I'll drive him around, up to a point, but if I tell him he has to be home by a certain time, I expect that to happen and similarly, I'll tell him when I am/am not willing to collect him and if he's not able/willing to come home, he can make his own way home. I do this because I feel this is the thing my parents (mum especially) made a mistake with my brothers - she was always making excuses for them: "Oh, he's late because he had to walk" or "He can't do that chore because of x or y" or, even worse, "you (me) are so much better at that so you can do it instead of/for your brother".

I won't ever teach my sons that they are part of an oppressive patriarchy before they have even stepped out into the world. The problem of patriarchy is one for the grown ups. Shaming young boys with notions of some sort of original sin is just cruel.

This attitude is well meaning, but misses the point. Ds is 13. He's already old enough, for example, to realise that when he's out in town with his 2 best white friends, the way they are perceived is different to when he's out in town with his black friend or his Albanian friend.

Chidlren can, and do, see the different ways in which people are treated based on age, race, religioun and yes, sex.

It's perfectly possible for boys to be taught from a young age that things are often different in the way we react to men/boys and encourage them to think about that and to do so without shaming them.

eg, I started teaching DS about consent when he was 2. He was always bigger and stronger than the other children (including the boys - he's 5ft8 and he's only 13 now) so it wasn't about sex, but it was about making him understand that by his very nature it would be easier for him to force someone to do something or to accept something they didn't want to because they could be scared/physically overwhelmed.

we have talked about how at 13, him and his friends being out and about vs the girls being out and about bring different risks and what those look like, and how to mitigate them.

I will ALWAYS point out the irony of the local schools being staffed by female teachers to at least 50% if not more, and yet the leadership teams are dominated by men. Similarly, he might roll his eyes at me, but I will continue to roll my eyes at the fact that the head boy always speaks first, gets up first, is named first and that this dynamic plays out in 1000 ways 1000 times a day. We have an election coming up, we talk about why it's that much harder for female candidates and the extra they have to fight past to get where they are.

@OnionPond not a case of under thinking but if you take this mentality it shows. Yeah some men are shit so are some women it's life.

When my boys were teenagers we also had discussions on language and phrases such as 'grow a pair' big girls blouse' run/throw/catch like a girl' 'man up' 'blonde jokes' etc.

The problem here is it assumes that generations of women have not tried to do this. If it was that easy, we wouldn't have a problem.

In certain communities, women have absolutely not done this and have waited hand and foot on their sons like they are princes. My MIL is visibly distressed when she sees DH and DS doing laundry or cooking. I ignore her.

Not got experience of this myself, but just a suggestion - it's worth having an in depth discussion on how patriarchy hurts everyone, not just women. Lots of people attribute negative things towards feminism that are actually the result of patriarchy, and while its obvious to some of us, its not obvious to everyone, and the information is out there in spades. But a teen might not go looking for it. But you do get a lot of people who have just not done any critical thinking or research out there who think that any discussion of 'patriarchy' is divisive, or demonising men - when the patriarchy hurts men in very specific ways too, this is a battle we should be fighting together!
So discussions on how patriarchy can lead men to thinking they shouldn't discuss their feeling, how it shapes attitudes towards mothers and fathers, how it excuses violent behaviour as 'boys will be boys'. Why feminism has been demonised. I don't think it's a bad thing to give people information - if they don't know, they don't know - it might be heavy handed, but it also might make a real impact on them and others as they move through the world.

You don't think it's even making an effort to change things then?

Bizarre.

Marry a good man yourself. Lead by example. Dh is a thoroughly decent man and so are my boys. It wasnt hard to teach them, they just grew up with a great dad.

I do like that you are being proactive, the world needs people like that. Though not all men are as you describe and not all woman are perfect either. You mention for example that women still feel lonely in their relationships because their partners don't hear them. This goes both ways. Men can feel lonely too for the same reasons. I think showing love, respect and good communication will help to raise a grounded and emotionally intelligent young man. I know a lot of late teens / young men (sons friends) who are such nice grounded and kind lads. I really like them. I also know a few young woman who are not so. I'm hoping my emotionally intelligent young men don't choose one like that for a life partner. It goes two ways. I'm a female.

And one of the things the strongest men who fought their way to the top of the pile did with their power was put in a system that required brains and strategic cunning to succeed in, so that their descendants could delegate the dangerous and unpleasant grunt work. So the patriarchy has already removed that particular gotcha for you.

This. Boys are stuffed full of pro-feminist/ misandrist ideology at school and it is turning them toward the likes of Andrew Tate.

I'm very proud of my young man - he is more than equal in terms of domestic duties with his partner and seems to treat her with utmost respect and care. I'm not sure I did anything special in bringing him up but going away to uni I made sure he was capable of doing his laundry/cooking a good meal etc.

I think there is a difference between parents modelling good relationships, talking openly about consent and equality to their boys and "making them feel bad for having a penis"!