Parents of boys- what are we doing to break the cycle of entitlement and patriarchy?

[datcherygrateful]

I want to raise my son who is a teenager, to
-not grow up into an entitled man
-to eventually understand the patriarchal system that has propped many men up and supressed women and so understand and appreciate equity vs equality in relationships.
-Respect women
-Be fully functional and so won't weaponize any incompetence in his relationships.
-Have emotional intelligence and maturity
-Be emotionally available
-Be able to emotionally regulate
-Be grounded
-Communicate openly
-Understand nuance
-Align his words with actions; lives with integrity.
-Be an active listener to his future partner and children
-Advocate and stand up when a friend or peer say or do something misogynistic.

Curious to know if there are any things you have been doing, in small doses maybe, that you picked up on from your own lived experience, things that you have vowed to do or say (or not) when raising your boys

I'm generally frustrated by a lot of the threads on this site where unfortunately too little progress is made. Cycles are repeating no matter how kind we think we raise our little boys to be. Women are still bearing the brunt and the things that too many women are experiencing are shocking and it's happening to women in their 20's and 30's; so very young still. I don't want to propagate or be complicit.

In terms of small steps or micro forms or doses, what are we all doing to plant the seeds of change?

Yes! What's with all this feeling sorry for incels? I ask both my DD and DS to clean their rooms and cook lunch. Nothing misandrist about that.

@Teentaxidriver "This. Boys are stuffed full of pro-feminist/ misandrist ideology at school"

Could you provide some examples, please?

What behaviours and attitudes are viewed by Incels as 'hard core feminist'? Would expecting a man to do a fair share of housework fall into that category?

Also, I'm very curious to know what drives you to infiltrate Incel groups - is this just a hobby, or is there a professional interest?

Dh parents are extremely rigid in their gender roles fil cannot boil an egg his jobs solely diy and car related . Dh is the exact opposite we share all jobs. Fil is agog “how did you learn to do this then” he said as Dh cooked a meal.

So I’m not convinced parents have as much influence as they think they do.

What is "pro feminist" ideology? That's not even a thing.

Misandry is a thing, but I don't see that happening at schools. Unless you count boys NOT automatically being the default in all settings in terms of what they learn, how they learn, who are selected as leaders etc.

Sharing the load with DH so they grow up seeing us both cooking and cleaning and sharing responsibility. Ditto parenting- they are used to dad getting them ready in the morning, bath times and bedtimes etc.
Teaching them to cook and clean and do laundry, also teaching them their responsibility to organise themselves (don’t want them being one of those men who can’t even pack their own suitcase). I think it can sometimes be really tempting to just swoop in and micromanage everything but it’s not for the best long-term.

Also trying to be as ‘gender-neutral’ as possible from very early childhood. No such thing as ‘boys toys’ and ‘girls toys’. They had tea party sets and dolls and prams as well as trucks and dinosaurs. One of my boys loved Barbie dolls and unicorns and pink for a while and we didn’t discourage it, just let him like what he liked. He’s very into cars now. Also making sure our boys get one-to-one time with both parents. I know in another thread people were talking about going out to cafes/lunch/the theatre as ‘mummy and daughter’ things but IME boys enjoy that sort of thing equally, and it’s great to do it together.

Other PPs have made great points about open conversation and particular topics.

Agree with this - I think parents think they have more influence than they actually do.

Personality plays a bigger part I believe.

Well maybe stopping using terms like ‘hardcore’ feminist mother. As if we are doing something extreme. Woman who work and remain independent are not hardcore feminists, woman who expect there children to tidy up after themselves are hardcore feminism, advising children about consent whether male or female is not hardcore feminism, woman expecting there husband to be an equal partner is not being a hardcore feminist

Are not! Sorry missed that above

Genuinely baffled by how many on here are talking about laundry and cooking

I don't get it.
Not a single man I ever dated, was in a relationship or married to did not know how to cook and clean. Gosh, my ex husband was super domesticated and brilliant at cooking, but was not emotionally intelligent- the kitchen is not the problem 😂

I mean, I started another thread which is still going "Things my ex did and I stayed"- go read the stories of these women. Those men were not Amoebas. Not once did the women complain about the cooking and cleaning! Read the root issues.

Imagine if you could afford to take the cooking and cleaning out of the equation, as in, delegate to professionals, like many wealthy people do and have done for centuries- does that mean that men in those circles respect women? since the women don't have to cook and clean? why the conflation?

Emotional maturity and intelligence, active listening and respecting women is not learnt in the kitchen.

Totally agree with PP- Men are victims of the system itself.

Also, I didn't say ALL men. I believe enough are for us to want to be proactive.

surely @datcherygrateful from reading MN you know that many men don't do chores. I agree active listening and respect is great, but harder to pin down.

@datcherygrateful I think the cooking/cleaning/laundry is just the first step and it IS important. But as others have pointed out, it's not a definitive solution.

But the reality is that it's a lot easier to have that conversation with your DS about why boys and girls are being treated differently if, in your own home, male/females are NOT treated differently and/or can do the same tasks. It's like a bedrock on which the rest is built.

Honestly, the posts I have read over the years revealed much much bigger problems than the partner not cooking and cleaning.

Those are minimum expectations. I don't get the causation or conflation, unless I am missing something?

My exH was abusive, but like I said brilliant at chores (better than me)

Get them to help/be equal housework wise and don’t not let them do it because they ‘can’t do it right!’
Lead by example women deserve hobbies/ days/ nights out- the second people start saying they ‘couldn’t possibly leave their child’ it’s the start of everything being centred on : woman = in the house, man should get to do what he wants

As someone said above don’t overthink it- you go in about something enough and people block you out

One thing i have noticed is that men often don;t let their wives go anywhere without them- mostly because they can't look after their kids on their own- and their wives put up with it because "family time " takes precedence for 20 years.

@datcherygrateful To be honest, my heart sinks a little at threads like this. So many of the responses are so depressing. There's always "NAMALT" ( of course they aren't!) "just treat boys and girls the same" (that would be fine if society did) "don't criminalise boys" (nobody is) "it's all the fault of feminists" (no it isn't) and so on and so on.

FWIW, I absolutely agree with you. We -both men and women- need to be thinking hard about the society we want our children to grow up and raise their children in. More of the same isn't-or shouldn't be- an option.

What a weird interpretation of OP's question

@datcherygrateful And I think your list is brilliant. I see someone called it overthinking. Well, we have generations of underthinking to combat.

1 as @Lentilweaver says, more men skip/do fewer chores. That's just a fact,

2 Your ex might have been good at chores AND abusive, but that's a relatively unusual combination. Lots of abusive/controlling men are usually pretty shit at chores and fully expect the "little woman" to do them.

3 As @MsMarch says - it's a bedrock. The first step or the foundation. No boy is going to believe a word that's said about equality and fairness if he doesn't see it at home first.

Ok I don't think we're going to move past this kitchen stuff.
Still baffled.
Let's say ALL boys everywhere cooked and cleaned.

What else is there that we are doing in micro doses to raise emotionally intelligent and mature young men?

@datcherygrateful so we want men to be emotionally mature and agree with our emotions? Can't see that working and wouldn't work - feelings don't trump facts and never should

I think boys need to see their fathers/male role models treating women with respect.
I think women need to try to empower their daughters to expect more from men and not to "settle" too easily.
My boys are teens and are way more influenced by their friends than they are by me. So starting much younger, when they are listening is best.
I am less fussed about chores than I am about attitude and how they treat me/other women.
Sending boys to mixed schools allows them to see successful bright girls every day, I think this helps too.

Sorry, I don't understand your post. Could you clarify?

They may not agree with our emotions as you say, but they should be able to respect and empathise no?

If the dad values and respects women as equals the rest is fairly straightforward.

It's also good to call out any/all influences, the obvious Tate, as just not a pleasant individual.

Get him to respect female teachers, the stories coming out from, particularly secondary school teachers, with young teens saying "you should be in the home" amongst other things is jaw-dropping.

And being a strong woman, who doesn't entertain these ideas or people who hold them. Men who think women are lesser still seem to persuade some to breed with them. I really don't know how but there we go. If these grunts were denied sex they might start thinking differently, especially if they were told why, failing that, at least overtime they would be bred out.

But again, it really does start with the dad, I'd he is still in their lives, because let's face it it much easier to blame "females" for everything you have fucked up in your life.

This is your own thread. why are you not reading it? lots of people have used the point about equality in the home, chores, cooking, cleaning etc. But many have provided additional /other points too. I've just copied and pasted a few here (not all ones I agree with, but. just to make the point).

Teach him to use masculine traits effectively - you are stronger than me / taller than me so can you ...

Don't force stereotypes or anti- stereotypes - he can wear what he wants, like what he wants.

He is being raised in a household where my work is fully as important as his father’s,

We talk through the issues that affect both sexes and how they can be addressed. Communication is the key! I also role model emotional intelligence and have done since he was a tot.

We talk about respectful language and attitudes. We debate.

They have freedom and independence, introduced at an appropriate stage, and responsibilities to go along with that. I do think independence and responsibility are two sides of the same coin.

my views and hobbies are important and I take time for myself rather than martyr myself for the family

We have had discussions about feminism after my son asked 'but what about international men's day' one international women's day. We didn't hector or lecture him by the way as he was early teens at the time but it led to a good discussion about women's rights.

Keep them away from organised religion. They all preach the same bollocks that god has decreed that men are worth more than women.

@Gelasring My sons asked me why there isn't an International Men's Day. I told them the other 364 days of the year are all International Men's Days.

1. if someone says stop, you stop straight away. It doesn't matter if you think you're being funny/you were both messing around/they didn't mind before; as soon as the word stop is said, you stop. Discussions about bodily autonomy and feeling safe and respected.

1. everyone in the house is an equal, and no one person should be expected to pick after everyone else. Ours are expected to clean up after themselves and help keep the house running smoothly (in an age appropriate way).

1. emotional literacy and avoiding the "boys don't cry" mentality like the plague. Making sure they know how to discuss and express feelings/emotions.

1. prioritizing kindness in a big way, and encouraging them to speak up in the face of inequality

1. open conversations about situations where inequality is apparent. Engaging them in discussing the unfairness and seeking their thoughts helps deepen their understanding of the issues and inequality.

Consequences - this is one DH is actually less good at. But I refuse to baby him. If he doesn't do something, I'm not rushing to fix the problem for him.

I started teaching DS about consent when he was 2. He was always bigger and stronger than the other children (including the boys - he's 5ft8 and he's only 13 now) so it wasn't about sex, but it was about making him understand that by his very nature it would be easier for him to force someone to do something or to accept something they didn't want to because they could be scared/physically overwhelmed.

we have talked about how at 13, him and his friends being out and about vs the girls being out and about bring different risks and what those look like, and how to mitigate them.

I will ALWAYS point out the irony of the local schools being staffed by female teachers to at least 50% if not more, and yet the leadership teams are dominated by men. Similarly, he might roll his eyes at me, but I will continue to roll my eyes at the fact that the head boy always speaks first, gets up first, is named first and that this dynamic plays out in 1000 ways 1000 times a day. We have an election coming up, we talk about why it's that much harder for female candidates and the extra they have to fight past to get where they are.

When my boys were teenagers we also had discussions on language and phrases such as 'grow a pair' big girls blouse' run/throw/catch like a girl' 'man up' 'blonde jokes' etc.

it's worth having an in depth discussion on how patriarchy hurts everyone, not just women. Lots of people attribute negative things towards feminism that are actually the result of patriarchy, and while its obvious to some of us, its not obvious to everyone, and the information is out there in spades.

Also trying to be as ‘gender-neutral’ as possible from very early childhood. No such thing as ‘boys toys’ and ‘girls toys’.

Also making sure our boys get one-to-one time with both parents. I know in another thread people were talking about going out to cafes/lunch/the theatre as ‘mummy and daughter’ things but IME boys enjoy that sort of thing equally, and it’s great to do it together.

think boys need to see their fathers/male role models treating women with respect.
I think women need to try to empower their daughters to expect more from men and not to "settle" too easily.