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dimllaishebiaith · 21/04/2024 19:38

SerendipityJane · 21/04/2024 19:33

Just to clear things up (😀) poster A was merely asking questions around a possible interpretation of the social contract. There was no suggestion within of any position one way or the other.

I didn't want to (entirely 🤣) speak for you but I had a feeling that was the case and it was a reasonable point you were making that I in no way assumed meant you were advocating for us all to go out and buy guns

cakeorwine · 21/04/2024 19:46

Clavinova · 21/04/2024 19:38

DramaLlamaBangBang
The member of Republic should have been allowed to write on his blank piece of paper

That may be, but the comparison is not the same - Gideon Falter just wanted to cross the road, wearing his everyday clothes.

The question is simple:

If a police officer believes there will be a breach of the peace, what should they do to prevent it happening?

MyBeloved · 21/04/2024 19:48

How can being 'openly jewish' in your on city, be a breach of the peace?

cakeorwine · 21/04/2024 19:51

MyBeloved · 21/04/2024 19:48

How can being 'openly jewish' in your on city, be a breach of the peace?

It's not. It is about "Preventing a breach of the peace"

Clearly the police officer thought that there were people in the crowd who could turn violent towards Gideon because he is Jewish. That is clear and it is wrong that he should be the subject of violence from a crowd because he is Jewish.

So a breach of the peace could happen. The police have a duty to prevent a breach of the peace.

But what should they have done if they thought a breach of the peace could happen?

MyBeloved · 21/04/2024 19:57

cakeorwine · 21/04/2024 19:51

It's not. It is about "Preventing a breach of the peace"

Clearly the police officer thought that there were people in the crowd who could turn violent towards Gideon because he is Jewish. That is clear and it is wrong that he should be the subject of violence from a crowd because he is Jewish.

So a breach of the peace could happen. The police have a duty to prevent a breach of the peace.

But what should they have done if they thought a breach of the peace could happen?

Jewish people have had to be escorted away to safety after leaving synagogue because of these marches. Surely, some sort of strategy of, for example, containing the marches, should have been implemented as a result by now? If the police truly believe that being 'openly jewish' is enough to turn the march violent, then it is the marches that must be dealt with, not the peaceful londoner who happens to be jewish.

LibbyLemoncake · 21/04/2024 20:01

MyBeloved · 21/04/2024 19:57

Jewish people have had to be escorted away to safety after leaving synagogue because of these marches. Surely, some sort of strategy of, for example, containing the marches, should have been implemented as a result by now? If the police truly believe that being 'openly jewish' is enough to turn the march violent, then it is the marches that must be dealt with, not the peaceful londoner who happens to be jewish.

But that’s too much like hard work (plus the police are scared of certain protesters) much easier to arrest the innocent Jewish man going about his day.

Clavinova · 21/04/2024 20:02

cakeorwine · 21/04/2024 19:46

The question is simple:

If a police officer believes there will be a breach of the peace, what should they do to prevent it happening?

Certainly not issue a statement that the mere "presence" of a Jewish person in London is "provocative".

dimllaishebiaith · 21/04/2024 20:03

cakeorwine · 21/04/2024 19:51

It's not. It is about "Preventing a breach of the peace"

Clearly the police officer thought that there were people in the crowd who could turn violent towards Gideon because he is Jewish. That is clear and it is wrong that he should be the subject of violence from a crowd because he is Jewish.

So a breach of the peace could happen. The police have a duty to prevent a breach of the peace.

But what should they have done if they thought a breach of the peace could happen?

No it wasn't

He was told he would be arrested for "causing a breach of peace" not to prevent one

Either way he was clearly the wrong person to be targeting

cakeorwine · 21/04/2024 20:04

Clavinova · 21/04/2024 20:02

Certainly not issue a statement that the mere "presence" of a Jewish person in London is "provocative".

Agreed

I have been threatened with arrest to prevent a breach of the peace despite carrying out a lawful activity.

The police misuse this power. I am glad that people are becoming more aware of it and how it's misused.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 20:07

The issue is clearly the threatening and likely violent protesters not a Jewish man

Start with dealing with that

cakeorwine · 21/04/2024 20:15

dimllaishebiaith · 21/04/2024 20:03

No it wasn't

He was told he would be arrested for "causing a breach of peace" not to prevent one

Either way he was clearly the wrong person to be targeting

I got that wrong. I just saw the clip about the police officer worrying about the reaction to his presence.

So I guess there was a breach of the peace in process for that comment to be made.

What should the police have done?

dimllaishebiaith · 21/04/2024 20:22

cakeorwine · 21/04/2024 20:15

I got that wrong. I just saw the clip about the police officer worrying about the reaction to his presence.

So I guess there was a breach of the peace in process for that comment to be made.

What should the police have done?

Dealt with the protestors appropriately

Been adequately staffed and equipped

Accepted that the protests aren't peaceful and create a threat and an environment where Jewish people don't feel safe before this happened

I'm not saying I don't feel sorry for the individual police officers on duty understaffed and under equipped. I do think the wording this particular officer used was completely inappropriate as was the threat to arrest him

They could have blocked off the street and not allowed any bypassers to pass if they were worried about violence, not just stopped Jews who looked like Jews

noblegiraffe · 21/04/2024 20:42

SerendipityJane · 21/04/2024 19:34

Ergo, the protests do indeed have a strong streak of antisemitism

Well to be precise (or is it exact) . one policeman on duty in London believed that

The police officer's opinion was kind of validated by the protestors who yelled 'Nazi' and 'Scum' at the Jewish man, and the guy who threatened to follow him, don't you think?

SerendipityJane · 21/04/2024 20:57

dimllaishebiaith · 21/04/2024 19:38

I didn't want to (entirely 🤣) speak for you but I had a feeling that was the case and it was a reasonable point you were making that I in no way assumed meant you were advocating for us all to go out and buy guns

This is where modern "debate" has lost something.

It should be possible to express something - or an understanding of it - without it being taken as advocacy.

Thank you 😀

LordPercyPercy · 21/04/2024 22:49

Compare and contrast:

https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1782117849949159759

Cross the road, you'll get nicked. Threaten someone right in front of a Met polce officer and it's no problem at all.

https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1782117849949159759

inneedofaglowup · 21/04/2024 23:00

Police are in the right.

resouply · 21/04/2024 23:13

inneedofaglowup · 21/04/2024 23:00

Police are in the right.

Why?

StoneofDestiny · 22/04/2024 07:48

The Guardian today - clearly showing he was far from being an innocent man walking back from prayers. If he'd being wearing a 'not my king' hat at a pro royalist gathering he'd have been man handled out the way, or if he'd been wearing a green and white football shirt at a Orange Parade he'd have been arrested 'for his own safety'. Such one sided comments on here supporting a guy who was out to do his own 'protest' and to get the reaction he got.

But a group representing Holocaust survivors, who attended the same pro-Palestinian demonstration as Falter, disputed his claim that the march was a no-go zone for Jews.
The group, which included Stephen Kapos, a Holocaust survivor from Budapest, and four other child survivors, said in an email: “Throughout [Falter’s] interactions with the police, we were standing only a few yards away from him, yet we experienced nothing but warmth and solidarity from the pro-Palestine demonstrators and not a hint of antisemitism
“Our group was ‘openly Jewish’ in that we all wore placards saying that, as descendants of Holocaust survivors, we oppose the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
“Every major pro-Palestine demonstration in London has included a large Jewish bloc which has received nothing but support and warmth from their fellow demonstrators.”
Behind the Met’s deleted statement on X lay months of resentment within the force that Falter’s group or its allies were deliberately going to demonstrations in the hope of catching the Met out.
Met insiders were apparently dubious that Falter had been out merely for a stroll and just happened across the march. Falter has said he had been walking in the capital after attending synagogue and was not there to counter-protest.
Falter was filmed on the north and south sides of Aldwych in different encounters with officers. In one video on the north side, he said he wanted to “carry on my way” and was asked how many people were with him. He said he was waiting for a couple of friends
.
In another, on the south side, he said he wanted to walk on the north side. An officer says he had already been seen “walking against the march”.

SerendipityJane · 22/04/2024 07:50

StoneofDestiny · 22/04/2024 07:48

The Guardian today - clearly showing he was far from being an innocent man walking back from prayers. If he'd being wearing a 'not my king' hat at a pro royalist gathering he'd have been man handled out the way, or if he'd been wearing a green and white football shirt at a Orange Parade he'd have been arrested 'for his own safety'. Such one sided comments on here supporting a guy who was out to do his own 'protest' and to get the reaction he got.

But a group representing Holocaust survivors, who attended the same pro-Palestinian demonstration as Falter, disputed his claim that the march was a no-go zone for Jews.
The group, which included Stephen Kapos, a Holocaust survivor from Budapest, and four other child survivors, said in an email: “Throughout [Falter’s] interactions with the police, we were standing only a few yards away from him, yet we experienced nothing but warmth and solidarity from the pro-Palestine demonstrators and not a hint of antisemitism
“Our group was ‘openly Jewish’ in that we all wore placards saying that, as descendants of Holocaust survivors, we oppose the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
“Every major pro-Palestine demonstration in London has included a large Jewish bloc which has received nothing but support and warmth from their fellow demonstrators.”
Behind the Met’s deleted statement on X lay months of resentment within the force that Falter’s group or its allies were deliberately going to demonstrations in the hope of catching the Met out.
Met insiders were apparently dubious that Falter had been out merely for a stroll and just happened across the march. Falter has said he had been walking in the capital after attending synagogue and was not there to counter-protest.
Falter was filmed on the north and south sides of Aldwych in different encounters with officers. In one video on the north side, he said he wanted to “carry on my way” and was asked how many people were with him. He said he was waiting for a couple of friends
.
In another, on the south side, he said he wanted to walk on the north side. An officer says he had already been seen “walking against the march”.

More victim blaming, it seems.

Comedycook · 22/04/2024 07:54

,If he'd being wearing a 'not my king' hat at a pro royalist gathering he'd have been man handled out the way, or if he'd been wearing a green and white football shirt at a Orange Parade he'd have been arrested 'for his own safety'

No it's not the same. Being visibly Jewish is nothing like wearing a football shirt or a hat with a political slogan. What vile nonsense. Unless of course, you think someone's identity, ethnicity or religion is provocative?

Comedycook · 22/04/2024 07:59

Also wearing a not my king hat for example would be a counter demonstration. This man wasn't protesting or counter protesting at the the time.

Cattyisbatty · 22/04/2024 07:59

I have no words for this as a Jewish person.
Maybe the backlash against the Met will make people realise what Jewish people have to put up with in London.
This guy was in his way back from synagogue minding his own business. In central London you can just come across marches, has happened to me (but I avoid central London on a Saturday - if you live centrally you can’t do this).
The Met needs a massive overhaul for so many reasons. I mainly hate Braverman but she’s right in that the police need to stamp down on these marches, I guarantee you many are there because they hate Jews/Israel and not because they care about Gazans. We all care about innocent Gazans.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 08:00

Comedycook · 22/04/2024 07:54

,If he'd being wearing a 'not my king' hat at a pro royalist gathering he'd have been man handled out the way, or if he'd been wearing a green and white football shirt at a Orange Parade he'd have been arrested 'for his own safety'

No it's not the same. Being visibly Jewish is nothing like wearing a football shirt or a hat with a political slogan. What vile nonsense. Unless of course, you think someone's identity, ethnicity or religion is provocative?

Edited

What vile nonsense.

It is. What a thing to believe

PurpleChrayn · 22/04/2024 08:11

The irony of that statement from Stephen Kapos! They're kapos, alright. Of course they felt warmth from the pro-Pal side.

I have to say, I'm heartened by the majority of posts from non-Jewish people on this thread. Very different from the poisonous little echo chamber that is the Conflict in the Middle East thread.

Maireas · 22/04/2024 08:17

It would have been nice for the marchers to let him pass. Rather than shout verbal abuse.
I have ceased to believe that these marches are peaceful in intent.
Rather like the Iranian man with the anti Hamas placard. Target the anti Hamas protester and the Jewish man? What's going on?