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Thread 41 How many more MPs will Sunak lose?

1000 replies

BIossomtoes · 14/04/2024 09:45

New thread. I took the liberty - the old one was at 999!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
67
Lion400 · 17/04/2024 10:58

AdamRyan · 17/04/2024 10:51

😂

I don't think Lion has been reading FWR thoroughly enough

You’re correct. I don’t read it page to page. Some days I stop procrastinating and actually work through without distraction. But others I get drawn in. Such is life.

AdamRyan · 17/04/2024 10:58

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 10:47

I must say , I find this sudden hunt for secularism interesting amongst the Right

JHB this morning-

"She has an ethos in school where we're all British, we're all school pupils here, your identity, your religion or your race is not interesting."

Once more suggesting to be 'religious' is to not be British.
Let's face it, they mean Muslim.

I'm never sure whether KB just wants children to be identity-less automatons. But specifically patriotic ones.

I read something interesting yesterday about how this 'you know school isn't the place where you are necessarily free to express or practice religious beliefs when you sign up' ruling might backfire on the GC 'free to express my views' lobby but can't find it again. Essentially, several lawyers thought this could be used as a precedent. And JHB probably accidentally used the word 'identity' there, since she spends a LOT of time policing people's identities.

I was wondering about Michaela school this morning. It sounds like an extremely rigid environment, and like its going to attract a certain type of person. So is it defacto going to be a school for white middle class aspiring private school parents? And is that OK?

I did actually agree with the judges reasoning but I don't agree either the school ethos at all and would not send my kids there. Which leads to segregation based on values.

I think we should have more standardisation in education to be honest. And maybe be a bit more French about secularism in education

TooBigForMyBoots · 17/04/2024 11:00

SerendipityJane · 17/04/2024 10:39

I'm wary of "The elite", "The blob" "the establishment", "shadowy cabal" type narratives. They all seem too much like excuses why the latest diet isn't working.

I'm in no doubt there are blocs of interests in society that may have found themselves aligned and possibly in step. But we know from nature that very complex behaviour can arise from very simple rules.

Me too. They might as well blame it on the Illuminati and be done with it.

AdamRyan · 17/04/2024 11:00

I don't agree it's secularism on the right either. Because I bet JHB is pro "Christian country/Christian values" when she wants.
It's anti- "other people's religion"

AdamRyan · 17/04/2024 11:01

TooBigForMyBoots · 17/04/2024 11:00

Me too. They might as well blame it on the Illuminati and be done with it.

Illuminati GIF

Lizards. Everywhere.

bombastix · 17/04/2024 11:03

I thought the Micheala decision was important and I agreed with it. That discretion is important in schools which have a legal duty to provide education. That was key really, as well as the ethos of the school itself. But it seems to me that decision was right because a school can decide to accommodate religious needs or not, but not to the detriment of education being given.

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 11:05

JessS1990 · 17/04/2024 10:39

So woman having smaller less hairy would be ok?

No. No penises or any size bollocks on any women at all. You know. Biology innit.

SerendipityJane · 17/04/2024 11:07

The most interesting thing about the Micheala case is how little it prompted anyone to research into Islam and what it actually says. Certainly in any reporting.

But then, as I have been (rather forcefully) told in the past, there are some people for whom a wider knowledge of Islam doesn't work. Which connects to the parade of YouTube videos of "Christians" being horrified at a book that turns out to be the bible they never read.

JessS1990 · 17/04/2024 11:11

AdamRyan · 17/04/2024 10:58

I was wondering about Michaela school this morning. It sounds like an extremely rigid environment, and like its going to attract a certain type of person. So is it defacto going to be a school for white middle class aspiring private school parents? And is that OK?

I did actually agree with the judges reasoning but I don't agree either the school ethos at all and would not send my kids there. Which leads to segregation based on values.

I think we should have more standardisation in education to be honest. And maybe be a bit more French about secularism in education

Michaela is interesting. Its pupils are mostly not white, reflecting the area in which it is located. Certainly the parents are aspirational.
If what is important is exam results then it is doing an excellent job.

It is quite clear from Michaela that the Head and staff can set the tone in a school. Whether one thinks that tone is appropriate or not, they certainly stick to it. This leads me to conclude that in other schools the Head and staff also set the tone, sometimes through inaction rather than action.

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 11:11

Look, if you are going to come on this thread there are those of us who don't find the trans debate amusing or funny. Your disdain is showing and if we must define then disdain for people with trans identities is part of the definition.

If you want to discuss politics, and the Michaela case, as you claimed then go for it. But silly , flippant comments about what you say is a serious issue are, frankly, goady and rather pathetic - they do you no favours if you want us to acknowledge or listen to your views. Penis is the biological word.

I am not going to engage further.

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 11:12

JessS1990 · 17/04/2024 11:11

Michaela is interesting. Its pupils are mostly not white, reflecting the area in which it is located. Certainly the parents are aspirational.
If what is important is exam results then it is doing an excellent job.

It is quite clear from Michaela that the Head and staff can set the tone in a school. Whether one thinks that tone is appropriate or not, they certainly stick to it. This leads me to conclude that in other schools the Head and staff also set the tone, sometimes through inaction rather than action.

Not even sure about the exam results bit, given the tiny number of GCSE options the school offers.

Saucery · 17/04/2024 11:12

I agree with the Michaela decision too. It’s not a school I would choose for an ND child, but its ethos is clear, parents and students know what they are signing up to. What I don’t agree with is the glomming on of the Right with the British Values distortion. BV isn’t about stopping children following their faith - it’s the opposite of that, in fact.
Michaela don’t want any demonstrations of faith in their secular school. Fair enough.
I do admire the student who raised the issue because it was important to her and it’s good that reports say she will continue in the school to sit her GCSEs (and that her younger sibling will still join the school). We need children and young people who will stand up and question things, with no adverse affects to their education.

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 11:14

I don't think it's been widely reported that the girl was also suspended. This was also appealed and that appeal was upheld. So the school did act unfairly towards her.

KB's statement is extraordinarily lengthy and rather ungracious.

DuncinToffee · 17/04/2024 11:14

Saucery · 17/04/2024 11:12

I agree with the Michaela decision too. It’s not a school I would choose for an ND child, but its ethos is clear, parents and students know what they are signing up to. What I don’t agree with is the glomming on of the Right with the British Values distortion. BV isn’t about stopping children following their faith - it’s the opposite of that, in fact.
Michaela don’t want any demonstrations of faith in their secular school. Fair enough.
I do admire the student who raised the issue because it was important to her and it’s good that reports say she will continue in the school to sit her GCSEs (and that her younger sibling will still join the school). We need children and young people who will stand up and question things, with no adverse affects to their education.

Michaela don’t want any demonstrations of faith in their secular school. Fair enough.

Strange then to sign off your statement with 'god save the king'

I agree with your post.

JessS1990 · 17/04/2024 11:14

Saucery · 17/04/2024 11:12

I agree with the Michaela decision too. It’s not a school I would choose for an ND child, but its ethos is clear, parents and students know what they are signing up to. What I don’t agree with is the glomming on of the Right with the British Values distortion. BV isn’t about stopping children following their faith - it’s the opposite of that, in fact.
Michaela don’t want any demonstrations of faith in their secular school. Fair enough.
I do admire the student who raised the issue because it was important to her and it’s good that reports say she will continue in the school to sit her GCSEs (and that her younger sibling will still join the school). We need children and young people who will stand up and question things, with no adverse affects to their education.

For some ND children Michaela may well suit, the order, the calmness, predictability could be much easier for them than the chaos of some schools.

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 11:15

Saucery · 17/04/2024 11:12

I agree with the Michaela decision too. It’s not a school I would choose for an ND child, but its ethos is clear, parents and students know what they are signing up to. What I don’t agree with is the glomming on of the Right with the British Values distortion. BV isn’t about stopping children following their faith - it’s the opposite of that, in fact.
Michaela don’t want any demonstrations of faith in their secular school. Fair enough.
I do admire the student who raised the issue because it was important to her and it’s good that reports say she will continue in the school to sit her GCSEs (and that her younger sibling will still join the school). We need children and young people who will stand up and question things, with no adverse affects to their education.

You realise her sign off is ''God Save the King"?

And that they all sing 'I vow to thee my country'?

JessS1990 · 17/04/2024 11:15

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 11:12

Not even sure about the exam results bit, given the tiny number of GCSE options the school offers.

By most (all?) measures the students do well in exams.
Whether that is to the detriment of choice and other skills is an interesting question.

RafaistheKingofClay · 17/04/2024 11:16

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 10:47

I must say , I find this sudden hunt for secularism interesting amongst the Right

JHB this morning-

"She has an ethos in school where we're all British, we're all school pupils here, your identity, your religion or your race is not interesting."

Once more suggesting to be 'religious' is to not be British.
Let's face it, they mean Muslim.

I'm never sure whether KB just wants children to be identity-less automatons. But specifically patriotic ones.

I read something interesting yesterday about how this 'you know school isn't the place where you are necessarily free to express or practice religious beliefs when you sign up' ruling might backfire on the GC 'free to express my views' lobby but can't find it again. Essentially, several lawyers thought this could be used as a precedent. And JHB probably accidentally used the word 'identity' there, since she spends a LOT of time policing people's identities.

Wrong kind of religion. Proper British religion fine. Not that other kind.

Similarly accusing other people of being anti semitic for criticising Israeli government fine. Talking about ‘cultural Marxism’ also fine and not at all hypocritical.

bombastix · 17/04/2024 11:16

There was an interesting line on one of the other Michaela threads that Britain has religious freedom. Yes but this is a relatively recent development and it rests on a lot of social and legal changes made by the Labour Party in the 1960s. The nature of freedom has changed for the left and the right I think, because these two groups, implicit right wing Christians and the groups said to be behind the Micheala application are actually very similar in mentality. They want primacy of religion. As a secular person I think they are two cheeks of the same arse

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 11:16

My school has a prayer room. I have issues with the fact that staff seem to think it is a multi purpose room and assume it will go unused but at least it is there. All hospitals have prayer rooms and chapels and secular reflection rooms. I have never got why that is a problem, unless KB and her school take issue with Muslim Prayer.

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 11:18

RafaistheKingofClay · 17/04/2024 11:16

Wrong kind of religion. Proper British religion fine. Not that other kind.

Similarly accusing other people of being anti semitic for criticising Israeli government fine. Talking about ‘cultural Marxism’ also fine and not at all hypocritical.

Oh, and don't forget complaining about 'North London'!

L1ttledrummergirl · 17/04/2024 11:18

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 09:56

Some food for thought

Drawn from: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Values-Voice-Virtue-British-Politics/dp/0141999098?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Britain is in the grip of a new elite, which has been rapidly losing touch with the rest of the country, setting the stage for a looming backlash among the masses.
If you want to understand why, over the last decade, Britain was radically reshaped by the rise of Nigel Farage’s national populism, Brexit and the post-Brexit realignment, symbolised by Boris Johnson, then you need to make sense of this elite.
Britain has always had an out-of-touch elite, of course. Henry Fairlie first talked about “the Establishment” in the 1950s, an Old Boys network of wealthy, right-leaning elites in the City who fill the Tory donor class and private members’ clubs on Pall Mall.
The old elite -clearly- still exist. It continues to wield enormous power over politics and the economy. But today, in Britain, as in many other Western democracies, the axis of power is now rapidly tilting toward a new ruling class —one that overlaps with the old elite but is distinct from it in important, under-appreciated ways.
Whereas the old elite was mainly defined by its wealth, inherited titles, estates, “small C” cultural values and, often, though not always, its lack of university education, the members of the new middle-class professional elite are defined by different things.
They were swept forward, mainly, by the rapid expansion of the universities, by their elite education at one of the most prestigious Oxbridge or Russell Group universities which, like them, have swung sharply leftwards over the past half century.
Whereas back in the 1960s left-wing academics outnumbered right-wing academics by a ratio of three to one, today it’s closer to eight to one, a symbol of how both the universities and the graduates they produce have increasingly swung left.
Unlike the right-leaning old middle-class and the Tory elite, over the last ten years the new middle-class graduate elite has shifted behind the Labour Party and other liberal left parties, such as the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish National Party, or the Greens.
In fact, had only Britain’s graduate class been eligible to vote at the last election, in 2019, then Jeremy Corbyn would currently be prime minister. And this shift is now being compounded by generational change; ask Millennial graduates how they voted at the last election and only one in five will say the Tories.
The rise of the new elite, then, reflects the rise of a powerful new ‘education divide’ in Britain and other Western democracies, a deep-rooted rift which is now pushing the elite graduate minority and the non-graduate majority firmly apart —economically, politically, culturally, and geographically.
Economically, the new elite are fond of portraying themselves as the oppressed and disadvantaged, the underdogs who are railing against the ‘real’ elite. But the reality is quite different. More often than not, they have been the real winners of globalisation and the transition toward a post-industrial knowledge-based economy.
For much of the last half century, the new elite, whose families often descend from the professional and managerial classes, benefitted far more than others from the shift toward a university-based meritocracy —a system which has increasingly whittled down the definition of ‘success’ to mean having a degree from the right university.
Shaped by their privileged family backgrounds, their educational qualifications, and their much greater ‘cultural capital’ —gained from their more immersive experiences in the Oxbridge and Russell Group college system— the new elite hoovered up most of the gains from Britain’s embrace of hyper-globalisation and a political economy which was rebuilt around them, which both demanded and rewarded their skills.
They’ve benefitted culturally, too. After flooding into the creative, cultural, knowledge and public sector institutions, becoming a new “epistemic class” which creates, filters and determines what is or what is not acceptable or desirable within the national conversation, the new elite watched the prevailing culture be completely reshaped around their far more socially liberal values, tastes, political priorities, and interests.
Increasingly, when they’ve looked out at the institutions and what they create -the television programmes, films, adverts, books, museums, galleries, columns, and the national conversation more broadly- they’ve seen their worldview staring back at them while millions of others struggle to recognise their worldview at all.
This is why the rise of Nigel Farage, Brexit, Trump, and Boris were so visibly traumatic and bewildering for the new elite. Until then, this culturally isolated and politically insulated group had largely had everything their own way.
At the same time, as academics have shown, their very status as highly educated, high-flying, liberal graduates has become central to their collective identity, giving them a powerful new sense of “class consciousness”, encouraging them to look down on the less well educated or the rising number of graduates from less prestigious institutions.
Increasingly, over the last decade, this has been driving what Michael Sandel calls the ‘politics of humiliation’, a palpable sense among millions of ordinary voters that they are now being cut adrift by a highly educated elite which not only hoovered up the economic gains but often rigged the system to favour their own group over others.
Whether reflected in the new elite bribing their way into America’s prestigious Ivy League colleges, the finding in Britain that it was mainly the children of the new elite who benefitted from the expansion of universities, or the repeated failure of the elite universities to devote anywhere near as much effort to helping children from the white working-class as they devote to those from minority backgrounds (as recently symbolised by Cambridge ignoring left behind white kids altogether), this sense that the deck has been rigged for the new elite has pushed many into populism.
And geographically, too, the new elite has been drifting away from much of the rest of the country, hunkering down in elite enclaves which is compounding these divides. Aside from their degrees, members of the new elite are also defined by their postcodes in the most affluent or trendy districts in London, the big cities and university towns.
They’ve consolidated their power not only by living in the most dynamic and prosperous epicentres of the economy, benefitting from buoyant housing markets and higher rates of growth, but are also more likely to marry other members of the elite graduate class while unfriending, blocking, and distancing themselves from people who do not belong to this class or who hold different political beliefs and values.
Almost half of all university students who graduate with a first-class or 2:1 degree from one of the most prestigious Oxbridge or the Russell Group are living in London within six months of graduating, while many others flock into the same parts of south Manchester, Bristol, Brighton, Sheffield. Increasingly, as much research shows, this is pushing apart the thriving, metropolitan and diverse centres from what geographer Christophe Guilluy, who forecast the rise of the Yellow Vests, calls “the periphery”.
It’s in Britain’s declining towns, rural areas and coastal communities, the areas filled with workers, non-graduates and pensioners which the new elite deride as “Little England” or “going nowhere” — where the backlash against them is strongest.
One reason why Labour lost the last election so heavily is precisely because the party, dominated by the new elite, had spent much of the preceding twenty years doubling down on the values and the voice of the new elite while ignoring the periphery.
This is underlined by the fact that, even today, the party has still not won the popular vote across non-London England since 2001, or that Labour strategists now openly confess they did not even bother to hold focus groups and speak to voters in many of these areas for close to twenty years. They just weren’t considered important.
This is not just about Labour, however. In recent years, the growing power and reach of the new elite has been just as visible on the right of politics, reflected in the likes of of Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve, Sarah Wollaston, and many other culturally left conservatives who either opposed Brexit or now feel completely at ease with very high immigration, hyper-globalisation, and key aspects of radical progressivism.
Consistently, as surveys show, many of Britain’s MPs on both the right and left lean much further to the cultural left than millions of voters in the country, refusing to represent, recognise and sometimes even respect people who hold different values to the socially and economically liberal consensus which tends to dominate Westminster.
And now, today, it’s this deep and growing rift between the elite graduate class and everybody else which is giving rise to three new fault lines which have been reshaping our politics and country over the past decade and will almost certainly drive more unrest in the years ahead unless we can find a way of closing them.

https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

Rise of the New Elite
How Britain's new ruling class lost touch with the country
https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

What a crock of shit! Fuck me these people are getting desperate. More conspiracy bollocks.

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 11:20

See, we don't all agree on everything. We are not a hive mind. Yay for us!!

SerendipityJane · 17/04/2024 11:21

There was an interesting line on one of the other Michaela threads that Britain has religious freedom. Yes but this is a relatively recent development and it rests on a lot of social and legal changes made by the Labour Party in the 1960s.

Presumably from someone who hasn't studied history ?

It was Englands relative religious tolerance in the middle ages that attracted victims of persecution from all over the Catholic world. It wasn't all rainbows and festivals but there were very few compulsions or restrictions unless you were Catholic or a dissenter.; And even the Catholic bans were gone by 1800 (if memory serves).

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/6/15/the-victorian-muslims-of-britain

The Victorian Muslims of Britain

The stories of the British aristocrats who converted to Islam.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/6/15/the-victorian-muslims-of-britain

Saucery · 17/04/2024 11:21

I hadn’t seen that sign off, no. I don’t think I Vow To Thee My Country is too problematic, however. The words are open to interpretation and BV are about tolerance and respect.
I would like to see more standardisation in education, like @AdamRyan . But until that Gordian knot of faith school/secular school in the UK is tackled it’s going to be difficult.
It comes down to what you sign up to in a school. Don’t want Catholic, Muslim or C of E bias? Don’t choose those schools, even if their results are better than the school down the road!

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