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Thread 41 How many more MPs will Sunak lose?

1000 replies

BIossomtoes · 14/04/2024 09:45

New thread. I took the liberty - the old one was at 999!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
67
bombastix · 17/04/2024 08:44

L1ttledrummergirl · 17/04/2024 08:43

I wonder how many official objections to orders there will be from pilots when they receive those orders.

The question is whether they will be breaking the law. This nasty little question will not go away for Mr Sunak

SerendipityJane · 17/04/2024 09:00

L1ttledrummergirl · 17/04/2024 08:43

I wonder how many official objections to orders there will be from pilots when they receive those orders.

Isn't this just lining up another court battle ?

Under the various conventions of war, superior orders are not a defence to a criminal act. As a lot of Nazis discovered at the end of a rope.

If a soldier believes an order to be unlawful they can refuse to obey - which would eventually end up in a court martial and thence a higher court.

DuncinToffee · 17/04/2024 09:50

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68830796

Paedophiles convicted of serious sexual offences could lose parental rights over their children under a new law.

The proposed law change comes after the BBC reported the case of a mother who spent £30,000 in legal fees to stop her paedophile ex-husband getting access to their daughter.

After hearing the story, Labour MP Harriet Harman tabled an amendment to upcoming legislation.

Child holding hands with adult

Paedophiles could be stripped of parental rights under new law

It comes after the BBC reported a mum's fight to stop her ex-husband getting access to their child.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68830796

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 09:56

Some food for thought

Drawn from: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Values-Voice-Virtue-British-Politics/dp/0141999098?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Britain is in the grip of a new elite, which has been rapidly losing touch with the rest of the country, setting the stage for a looming backlash among the masses.
If you want to understand why, over the last decade, Britain was radically reshaped by the rise of Nigel Farage’s national populism, Brexit and the post-Brexit realignment, symbolised by Boris Johnson, then you need to make sense of this elite.
Britain has always had an out-of-touch elite, of course. Henry Fairlie first talked about “the Establishment” in the 1950s, an Old Boys network of wealthy, right-leaning elites in the City who fill the Tory donor class and private members’ clubs on Pall Mall.
The old elite -clearly- still exist. It continues to wield enormous power over politics and the economy. But today, in Britain, as in many other Western democracies, the axis of power is now rapidly tilting toward a new ruling class —one that overlaps with the old elite but is distinct from it in important, under-appreciated ways.
Whereas the old elite was mainly defined by its wealth, inherited titles, estates, “small C” cultural values and, often, though not always, its lack of university education, the members of the new middle-class professional elite are defined by different things.
They were swept forward, mainly, by the rapid expansion of the universities, by their elite education at one of the most prestigious Oxbridge or Russell Group universities which, like them, have swung sharply leftwards over the past half century.
Whereas back in the 1960s left-wing academics outnumbered right-wing academics by a ratio of three to one, today it’s closer to eight to one, a symbol of how both the universities and the graduates they produce have increasingly swung left.
Unlike the right-leaning old middle-class and the Tory elite, over the last ten years the new middle-class graduate elite has shifted behind the Labour Party and other liberal left parties, such as the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish National Party, or the Greens.
In fact, had only Britain’s graduate class been eligible to vote at the last election, in 2019, then Jeremy Corbyn would currently be prime minister. And this shift is now being compounded by generational change; ask Millennial graduates how they voted at the last election and only one in five will say the Tories.
The rise of the new elite, then, reflects the rise of a powerful new ‘education divide’ in Britain and other Western democracies, a deep-rooted rift which is now pushing the elite graduate minority and the non-graduate majority firmly apart —economically, politically, culturally, and geographically.
Economically, the new elite are fond of portraying themselves as the oppressed and disadvantaged, the underdogs who are railing against the ‘real’ elite. But the reality is quite different. More often than not, they have been the real winners of globalisation and the transition toward a post-industrial knowledge-based economy.
For much of the last half century, the new elite, whose families often descend from the professional and managerial classes, benefitted far more than others from the shift toward a university-based meritocracy —a system which has increasingly whittled down the definition of ‘success’ to mean having a degree from the right university.
Shaped by their privileged family backgrounds, their educational qualifications, and their much greater ‘cultural capital’ —gained from their more immersive experiences in the Oxbridge and Russell Group college system— the new elite hoovered up most of the gains from Britain’s embrace of hyper-globalisation and a political economy which was rebuilt around them, which both demanded and rewarded their skills.
They’ve benefitted culturally, too. After flooding into the creative, cultural, knowledge and public sector institutions, becoming a new “epistemic class” which creates, filters and determines what is or what is not acceptable or desirable within the national conversation, the new elite watched the prevailing culture be completely reshaped around their far more socially liberal values, tastes, political priorities, and interests.
Increasingly, when they’ve looked out at the institutions and what they create -the television programmes, films, adverts, books, museums, galleries, columns, and the national conversation more broadly- they’ve seen their worldview staring back at them while millions of others struggle to recognise their worldview at all.
This is why the rise of Nigel Farage, Brexit, Trump, and Boris were so visibly traumatic and bewildering for the new elite. Until then, this culturally isolated and politically insulated group had largely had everything their own way.
At the same time, as academics have shown, their very status as highly educated, high-flying, liberal graduates has become central to their collective identity, giving them a powerful new sense of “class consciousness”, encouraging them to look down on the less well educated or the rising number of graduates from less prestigious institutions.
Increasingly, over the last decade, this has been driving what Michael Sandel calls the ‘politics of humiliation’, a palpable sense among millions of ordinary voters that they are now being cut adrift by a highly educated elite which not only hoovered up the economic gains but often rigged the system to favour their own group over others.
Whether reflected in the new elite bribing their way into America’s prestigious Ivy League colleges, the finding in Britain that it was mainly the children of the new elite who benefitted from the expansion of universities, or the repeated failure of the elite universities to devote anywhere near as much effort to helping children from the white working-class as they devote to those from minority backgrounds (as recently symbolised by Cambridge ignoring left behind white kids altogether), this sense that the deck has been rigged for the new elite has pushed many into populism.
And geographically, too, the new elite has been drifting away from much of the rest of the country, hunkering down in elite enclaves which is compounding these divides. Aside from their degrees, members of the new elite are also defined by their postcodes in the most affluent or trendy districts in London, the big cities and university towns.
They’ve consolidated their power not only by living in the most dynamic and prosperous epicentres of the economy, benefitting from buoyant housing markets and higher rates of growth, but are also more likely to marry other members of the elite graduate class while unfriending, blocking, and distancing themselves from people who do not belong to this class or who hold different political beliefs and values.
Almost half of all university students who graduate with a first-class or 2:1 degree from one of the most prestigious Oxbridge or the Russell Group are living in London within six months of graduating, while many others flock into the same parts of south Manchester, Bristol, Brighton, Sheffield. Increasingly, as much research shows, this is pushing apart the thriving, metropolitan and diverse centres from what geographer Christophe Guilluy, who forecast the rise of the Yellow Vests, calls “the periphery”.
It’s in Britain’s declining towns, rural areas and coastal communities, the areas filled with workers, non-graduates and pensioners which the new elite deride as “Little England” or “going nowhere” — where the backlash against them is strongest.
One reason why Labour lost the last election so heavily is precisely because the party, dominated by the new elite, had spent much of the preceding twenty years doubling down on the values and the voice of the new elite while ignoring the periphery.
This is underlined by the fact that, even today, the party has still not won the popular vote across non-London England since 2001, or that Labour strategists now openly confess they did not even bother to hold focus groups and speak to voters in many of these areas for close to twenty years. They just weren’t considered important.
This is not just about Labour, however. In recent years, the growing power and reach of the new elite has been just as visible on the right of politics, reflected in the likes of of Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve, Sarah Wollaston, and many other culturally left conservatives who either opposed Brexit or now feel completely at ease with very high immigration, hyper-globalisation, and key aspects of radical progressivism.
Consistently, as surveys show, many of Britain’s MPs on both the right and left lean much further to the cultural left than millions of voters in the country, refusing to represent, recognise and sometimes even respect people who hold different values to the socially and economically liberal consensus which tends to dominate Westminster.
And now, today, it’s this deep and growing rift between the elite graduate class and everybody else which is giving rise to three new fault lines which have been reshaping our politics and country over the past decade and will almost certainly drive more unrest in the years ahead unless we can find a way of closing them.

https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

Rise of the New Elite
How Britain's new ruling class lost touch with the country
https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

Rise of the New Elite

How Britain's new ruling class lost touch with the country

https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

DuncinToffee · 17/04/2024 09:57

Nat C conference is back on today after the Court overruled decision by local mayor to close it down.

IClaudine · 17/04/2024 09:59

DuncinToffee · 17/04/2024 09:50

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68830796

Paedophiles convicted of serious sexual offences could lose parental rights over their children under a new law.

The proposed law change comes after the BBC reported the case of a mother who spent £30,000 in legal fees to stop her paedophile ex-husband getting access to their daughter.

After hearing the story, Labour MP Harriet Harman tabled an amendment to upcoming legislation.

I thought Labour didn't care about the safety of children?

@Lion400 is it possible to repost with paragraphs. That is a very hard to read block of text.

DuncinToffee · 17/04/2024 09:59

I give Matt Goodwin's book a miss, just like Liz Truss book

Glad you manage to find the thread again

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 10:04

@IClaudine I’ve got work to do. I’m already procrastinating. Perhaps you could break it up yourself, to make it more readable for you.

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 10:06

DuncinToffee · 17/04/2024 09:59

I give Matt Goodwin's book a miss, just like Liz Truss book

Glad you manage to find the thread again

😂 of course you did

JessS1990 · 17/04/2024 10:09

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 09:56

Some food for thought

Drawn from: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Values-Voice-Virtue-British-Politics/dp/0141999098?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Britain is in the grip of a new elite, which has been rapidly losing touch with the rest of the country, setting the stage for a looming backlash among the masses.
If you want to understand why, over the last decade, Britain was radically reshaped by the rise of Nigel Farage’s national populism, Brexit and the post-Brexit realignment, symbolised by Boris Johnson, then you need to make sense of this elite.
Britain has always had an out-of-touch elite, of course. Henry Fairlie first talked about “the Establishment” in the 1950s, an Old Boys network of wealthy, right-leaning elites in the City who fill the Tory donor class and private members’ clubs on Pall Mall.
The old elite -clearly- still exist. It continues to wield enormous power over politics and the economy. But today, in Britain, as in many other Western democracies, the axis of power is now rapidly tilting toward a new ruling class —one that overlaps with the old elite but is distinct from it in important, under-appreciated ways.
Whereas the old elite was mainly defined by its wealth, inherited titles, estates, “small C” cultural values and, often, though not always, its lack of university education, the members of the new middle-class professional elite are defined by different things.
They were swept forward, mainly, by the rapid expansion of the universities, by their elite education at one of the most prestigious Oxbridge or Russell Group universities which, like them, have swung sharply leftwards over the past half century.
Whereas back in the 1960s left-wing academics outnumbered right-wing academics by a ratio of three to one, today it’s closer to eight to one, a symbol of how both the universities and the graduates they produce have increasingly swung left.
Unlike the right-leaning old middle-class and the Tory elite, over the last ten years the new middle-class graduate elite has shifted behind the Labour Party and other liberal left parties, such as the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish National Party, or the Greens.
In fact, had only Britain’s graduate class been eligible to vote at the last election, in 2019, then Jeremy Corbyn would currently be prime minister. And this shift is now being compounded by generational change; ask Millennial graduates how they voted at the last election and only one in five will say the Tories.
The rise of the new elite, then, reflects the rise of a powerful new ‘education divide’ in Britain and other Western democracies, a deep-rooted rift which is now pushing the elite graduate minority and the non-graduate majority firmly apart —economically, politically, culturally, and geographically.
Economically, the new elite are fond of portraying themselves as the oppressed and disadvantaged, the underdogs who are railing against the ‘real’ elite. But the reality is quite different. More often than not, they have been the real winners of globalisation and the transition toward a post-industrial knowledge-based economy.
For much of the last half century, the new elite, whose families often descend from the professional and managerial classes, benefitted far more than others from the shift toward a university-based meritocracy —a system which has increasingly whittled down the definition of ‘success’ to mean having a degree from the right university.
Shaped by their privileged family backgrounds, their educational qualifications, and their much greater ‘cultural capital’ —gained from their more immersive experiences in the Oxbridge and Russell Group college system— the new elite hoovered up most of the gains from Britain’s embrace of hyper-globalisation and a political economy which was rebuilt around them, which both demanded and rewarded their skills.
They’ve benefitted culturally, too. After flooding into the creative, cultural, knowledge and public sector institutions, becoming a new “epistemic class” which creates, filters and determines what is or what is not acceptable or desirable within the national conversation, the new elite watched the prevailing culture be completely reshaped around their far more socially liberal values, tastes, political priorities, and interests.
Increasingly, when they’ve looked out at the institutions and what they create -the television programmes, films, adverts, books, museums, galleries, columns, and the national conversation more broadly- they’ve seen their worldview staring back at them while millions of others struggle to recognise their worldview at all.
This is why the rise of Nigel Farage, Brexit, Trump, and Boris were so visibly traumatic and bewildering for the new elite. Until then, this culturally isolated and politically insulated group had largely had everything their own way.
At the same time, as academics have shown, their very status as highly educated, high-flying, liberal graduates has become central to their collective identity, giving them a powerful new sense of “class consciousness”, encouraging them to look down on the less well educated or the rising number of graduates from less prestigious institutions.
Increasingly, over the last decade, this has been driving what Michael Sandel calls the ‘politics of humiliation’, a palpable sense among millions of ordinary voters that they are now being cut adrift by a highly educated elite which not only hoovered up the economic gains but often rigged the system to favour their own group over others.
Whether reflected in the new elite bribing their way into America’s prestigious Ivy League colleges, the finding in Britain that it was mainly the children of the new elite who benefitted from the expansion of universities, or the repeated failure of the elite universities to devote anywhere near as much effort to helping children from the white working-class as they devote to those from minority backgrounds (as recently symbolised by Cambridge ignoring left behind white kids altogether), this sense that the deck has been rigged for the new elite has pushed many into populism.
And geographically, too, the new elite has been drifting away from much of the rest of the country, hunkering down in elite enclaves which is compounding these divides. Aside from their degrees, members of the new elite are also defined by their postcodes in the most affluent or trendy districts in London, the big cities and university towns.
They’ve consolidated their power not only by living in the most dynamic and prosperous epicentres of the economy, benefitting from buoyant housing markets and higher rates of growth, but are also more likely to marry other members of the elite graduate class while unfriending, blocking, and distancing themselves from people who do not belong to this class or who hold different political beliefs and values.
Almost half of all university students who graduate with a first-class or 2:1 degree from one of the most prestigious Oxbridge or the Russell Group are living in London within six months of graduating, while many others flock into the same parts of south Manchester, Bristol, Brighton, Sheffield. Increasingly, as much research shows, this is pushing apart the thriving, metropolitan and diverse centres from what geographer Christophe Guilluy, who forecast the rise of the Yellow Vests, calls “the periphery”.
It’s in Britain’s declining towns, rural areas and coastal communities, the areas filled with workers, non-graduates and pensioners which the new elite deride as “Little England” or “going nowhere” — where the backlash against them is strongest.
One reason why Labour lost the last election so heavily is precisely because the party, dominated by the new elite, had spent much of the preceding twenty years doubling down on the values and the voice of the new elite while ignoring the periphery.
This is underlined by the fact that, even today, the party has still not won the popular vote across non-London England since 2001, or that Labour strategists now openly confess they did not even bother to hold focus groups and speak to voters in many of these areas for close to twenty years. They just weren’t considered important.
This is not just about Labour, however. In recent years, the growing power and reach of the new elite has been just as visible on the right of politics, reflected in the likes of of Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve, Sarah Wollaston, and many other culturally left conservatives who either opposed Brexit or now feel completely at ease with very high immigration, hyper-globalisation, and key aspects of radical progressivism.
Consistently, as surveys show, many of Britain’s MPs on both the right and left lean much further to the cultural left than millions of voters in the country, refusing to represent, recognise and sometimes even respect people who hold different values to the socially and economically liberal consensus which tends to dominate Westminster.
And now, today, it’s this deep and growing rift between the elite graduate class and everybody else which is giving rise to three new fault lines which have been reshaping our politics and country over the past decade and will almost certainly drive more unrest in the years ahead unless we can find a way of closing them.

https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

Rise of the New Elite
How Britain's new ruling class lost touch with the country
https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

Would I be correct in saying that here is another example of someone saying that university education is a bad thing?

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 10:10

Did you not want to discuss Michaela?

IClaudine · 17/04/2024 10:12

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 10:04

@IClaudine I’ve got work to do. I’m already procrastinating. Perhaps you could break it up yourself, to make it more readable for you.

Na. If you won't make the effort to post something readable, I won't make the effort to read it.

DuncinToffee · 17/04/2024 10:12

Only if you are the 'new elite' I think Jess, it's fine for the 'old elite'

JessS1990 · 17/04/2024 10:15

DuncinToffee · 17/04/2024 10:12

Only if you are the 'new elite' I think Jess, it's fine for the 'old elite'

I did rather get the impression that the author thought it was terribly unfair that people who had been educated and were capable of thinking for themselves might have a world view that differed from their own.

IClaudine · 17/04/2024 10:18

I only skim read as it hurt my eyes (I have crap eyesight). But is it saying that the more educated you are, the more likely it is you will veer to the left rather than the right? Therefore educating the masses too much is bad?

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 10:18

JessS1990 · 17/04/2024 10:09

Would I be correct in saying that here is another example of someone saying that university education is a bad thing?

Yes. Yes that’s exactly right. You are 100% correct. Well done. Comprehension A+++++ As EBay would say. Or is that good seller A++++ hmm can’t remember. So confusing trying to read things these days.

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 10:18

IClaudine · 17/04/2024 10:18

I only skim read as it hurt my eyes (I have crap eyesight). But is it saying that the more educated you are, the more likely it is you will veer to the left rather than the right? Therefore educating the masses too much is bad?

Sure yes. That’s what it is saying. Well done you!!!

JessS1990 · 17/04/2024 10:23

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 10:18

Yes. Yes that’s exactly right. You are 100% correct. Well done. Comprehension A+++++ As EBay would say. Or is that good seller A++++ hmm can’t remember. So confusing trying to read things these days.

At least they didn't go full Cates and say that woman shouldn't have an education.

DuncinToffee · 17/04/2024 10:28

Laura Trott could do with some more lessons on inflation

https://x.com/implausibleblog/status/1780521863388512368

Laura Trott, "Great news.. Inflation coming down, food prices coming down"

Ed Balls, "I think you misspoke.. When you said prices are coming down, did you mean prices are going up?"

Laura Trott, "Sorry, the rate at which prices are rising are coming down"

Susanna Reid, "Food prices are still going up"

Ed Balls, "Just explain this to our viewers. You say inflation is coming down, and people say to to us, the price of goods are going up. So just explain to our viewers how those two things can be true"

Laura Trott, "Real wages are rising.. More money in your pay check at the end of the month"

Ed Balls, "Prices are going up"

Laura Trott, "Prices are going up.. The target rate of inflation is 2%"

Ed Balls, "So inflation is coming down and prices are going up"

bombastix · 17/04/2024 10:30

Well at least Trott shows how good the education system in this country has become and the quality of a Tory MP

JessS1990 · 17/04/2024 10:31

DuncinToffee · 17/04/2024 10:28

Laura Trott could do with some more lessons on inflation

https://x.com/implausibleblog/status/1780521863388512368

Laura Trott, "Great news.. Inflation coming down, food prices coming down"

Ed Balls, "I think you misspoke.. When you said prices are coming down, did you mean prices are going up?"

Laura Trott, "Sorry, the rate at which prices are rising are coming down"

Susanna Reid, "Food prices are still going up"

Ed Balls, "Just explain this to our viewers. You say inflation is coming down, and people say to to us, the price of goods are going up. So just explain to our viewers how those two things can be true"

Laura Trott, "Real wages are rising.. More money in your pay check at the end of the month"

Ed Balls, "Prices are going up"

Laura Trott, "Prices are going up.. The target rate of inflation is 2%"

Ed Balls, "So inflation is coming down and prices are going up"

Does she have a university degree?

Perhaps the article linked earlier has a point.

IClaudine · 17/04/2024 10:34

No need to be ride @Lion400

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 10:34

DuncinToffee · 17/04/2024 10:28

Laura Trott could do with some more lessons on inflation

https://x.com/implausibleblog/status/1780521863388512368

Laura Trott, "Great news.. Inflation coming down, food prices coming down"

Ed Balls, "I think you misspoke.. When you said prices are coming down, did you mean prices are going up?"

Laura Trott, "Sorry, the rate at which prices are rising are coming down"

Susanna Reid, "Food prices are still going up"

Ed Balls, "Just explain this to our viewers. You say inflation is coming down, and people say to to us, the price of goods are going up. So just explain to our viewers how those two things can be true"

Laura Trott, "Real wages are rising.. More money in your pay check at the end of the month"

Ed Balls, "Prices are going up"

Laura Trott, "Prices are going up.. The target rate of inflation is 2%"

Ed Balls, "So inflation is coming down and prices are going up"

I do like EB. Could he and RD take over leadership of the LP? I might vote for them then.

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 10:35

My 'real wages' have not gone up, Laura.

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