What rules of etiquette should I know?

[DuskyEvenings]

Reading another thread I realised that due to my upbringing, it would never occur to me to take wine/flowers to someone's house if they were hosting. (That said, I often offer to cook for us all and take it with me ready prepared, or if it's a whole evening thing where drinking will happen I do always buy more wine than I could possibly drink myself)

It got me wondering how many other unwritten rules I don't know. I'm not concerned that people think I'm rude particularly as all my friends know I would (and often do) do anything to help them out but I realise now that strangers wouldn't know this.

So help me out please oh wise mumsnetters!

What happens in your opinion, if someone doesn't put their knife and fork together when they've finished eating? If it's something tragic, you have a point about etiquette being necessary. But if things are ok, in your opinion, when someone leaves their knife and fork apart, then why is the etiquette necessary?

Because it's considerate to the person who is waiting to clear your plate. That's what etiquette and manners are - being considerate to other people. Or do you think being considerate isn't necessary?

It requires no more effort on your part to put your cutlery together when you've finished eating than to leave it lying anyhow on the plate, so why not just do it?

Those are absolutely fine because they are known as "oven to tableware". Serving at the table out of a bog standard saucepan is just horrible.

Exactly!

If you are in a decent restaurant, you'll be waiting a long time for them to clear your plate and bring you the next course as they will wait for this as a sign that you have finished.

When walking on a street the gentleman should be on the traffic side of the pavement.
The gentleman should get off the bus first and pause offering his hand to steady the lady, if she needs it.
When I was younger and more of a fashion victim with heels and hobble skirt that was an essential confidence feature. Rear open platforms were higher.

That's a rather silly thing to say. Of course a tragedy won't befall you if you don't put your knife and fork together, neither would it invoke a tragedy if you ate your whole meal with your fingers, spat everywhere and threw leftovers on the floor.
However, it would be unpleasant and awkward for other people and manners are there to avoid awkwardness and help make social interactions go more smoothly.
If you don't put your cutlery together you haven't given the signal that you've finished eating. Therefore your host or the waiter has the awkwardness of having to ask you specifically if you've finished, which you could have avoided by taking one second to put your cutlery together.

Holding and using fork properly
dont grasp it like a hand trowel- hold it correctly between the fingers and thumb. And try to avoid using it scoop side up- it’s not a spoon. You use it with bow pointing upwards, and use the prongs to stab the food and transfer to your mouth- prongs going in. A few last bits on the plate or the odd escaped pea is fine to do scope lift, but switch it other way up for next mouthful

i cant tell you the amount of men I have sat opposite, who went to public school and use their fork like a hand trowel shovelling in food at high speed. I can only assume their school never actually taught them table manners, and they had to shovel food in fast in case someone else helped themselves 🤷🏼‍♀️

and don’t slurp your soup. Or your hot drink.

amd also hold your knife nicely - again not a trowel or caring knife, or even a knife to stab someone with🤦‍♀️

When you put your elbows on the table you take up more space and encroach upon your neighbour.
Wrists only on the table and elbows tucked in makes for a much more pleasant experience.

DH is always prodding me with his bloody elbows, I’d like to stab them with a fork but just respond by retaliating, he always looks so affronted.🙄

Yes, DH, that’s because it’s fucking rude and yobbish! 😤

What’s horrible about it? I honestly don’t get half these replies!

1 . Don’t wear white to a wedding.

2 . Say please and thank you.

3 . Never ever EVER ever arrive early for an event, especially in Ireland, this is really very very bad and absolutely never ok to do this, especially if it’s at someone house.
(Even if the motorway/tunnel is brilliant and the weather is great, pull over and wait, do not ever arrive early as this is the most awkward cringe thing you could ever do and you can’t even talk about the weather or traffic then!!)

Some of the origins of table manners go back a long way and were about stopping people stabbing each other at dinner for example, knives and forks were potentially dangerous objects. Still are I suppose!

There's an interesting bool on the subject called The Rituals of Dinner.

Putting your knife and fork together shows you've finished, even if your plate isn't clear, ditto if you close the menu wait staff know you're ready to order

Not putting your elbows on the table is maybe about making it easier for wait staff to reach in and clear the plate - so maybe not as important at home but opinions vary as to the origin, seems to be something about sailors or medieval people.

Not taking wine if invited to someone's house for dinner is because the host may have chosen particular wine to go with the food so if you bring some it may be considered a gift, not to be drunk that evening. Although I always take wine but my friends generally haven't matched the food to the wine. If they have though I'll drink what they put out.

I think if you are considerate of other people's feelings and ask if you're not sure you won't go far wrong. Although Brits have lots and lots of unwritten rules around things like queues for example so, not always true!

When introducing someone the more senior person has the less senior brought to their attention. (Eg “Mr Clark this is my friend Miss Jones”, or if you call them something different, “Dad, this is my friend Miss Jones, Annie this is my Dad, Mr Clark.”)

A gentleman is introduced to a lady
A younger person is introduced to an older person
A lower ranking person is introduced to a higher ranking person

With a bit of common sense added as what you do in each individual case.

I just wish introductions didn't seem to have fallen completely out of fashion. At least say each person's name clearly, who they are in the context of where the introduction is happening - a work event, a party at home - and what they might have in common that they could talk about.

I didn't insist it was necessary, it is just good manners and politeness. I was responding to the OP and other comments. I wasn't having a go at you.

Not sure if this is the etiquette 'rules' but for me, napkins at every meal are a must. I hate it when they are not on the table. No one wants to see people wiping their mouth with the back of their hand, or worse with food around their mouth. We use cotton ones at home that get chucked in the wash.

Never blow your nose at the table

Don't pick food from your teeth at the table, use a toothpick or if you really have to then do it with a napkin covering your mouth

If you're eating fruit at the table cut it up first.

Don't fill wine glasses to the rim. Red should 1/3 full to allow air, which will improve the flavour White are half full. Hold the glass by the stem.

I was taught to never toast with water and to always look the person in the eye that you're clicking glasses with! That might be an Italian thing though.

Don't laugh hysterically in restaurants. I hate sitting near groups who screech with uncontrollable laughter, usually because they've drunk too much.

My DH is a generally nice person but was brought up in a bad mannered family, I wasn’t. Here are some of the things he does that drive me crazy. Avoid these!

• When he cooks, even if guests are here, he serves himself first, then sits down and starts eating. It should be the host serves the guests first, starting with the ladies, and serves himself last, and no one should eat until everyone has food.
• Reads at the table (well, scrolls phone)
• Gets up and leaves the table when he’s finished eating even if others are still eating.
• Is clearly bored when guests are being boring.
• Tells guests long boring stories about how great he is, then interrupts their stories.
• Never gives the host a gift, of if bullied by me into doing so, takes the cheapest supermarket wine he can find, which is actually an insult.
• When walking he walks slightly faster and in front of whoever he’s with.
• He always marches through a doorway first, never steps back to allow ladies first and never holds it open for people, just lets it swing closed in their faces.

It’s so difficult trying to teach our DC good manners when “Daddy doesn’t do that” 🙈

Anyway, other good rules include never discuss religion politics or biology at the table.

If we’re going to someone else’s house we usually take wine and chocolates. Never flowers as from experience it’s a PITA to be handed a flowers, which will need to be placed in water, if you’re not expecting them.

Maybe the most important remember that other people have different customs, may be from another culture or in my case have a less visible disability.

Due to the disability I can’t follow the knife and fork rules. I worry people judge me (even if they don’t say anything) and sometimes don’t pick the thing I’d most like in a restaurant because I won’t be able to be “proper” eating it. You can ask the waiter to get food cut up, but i wouldn’t risk them forgetting until I know the people I’m eating with so order pasta not pizza.

Of course anyone here who has set out the rules will be saying it doesn’t apply in cases of disability but at the restaurant they can’t see I’m disabled or I’m ashamed to say. Id never be invited but id certainly be one being judged by the poster referring to the Great British Menu banquet.

In a home never cross on the stairs.
Is that not just a superstition rather than etiquette?

I don’t think so, it’s more like standing back to let someone out of a lift before you pile in. Most manners are just practical.

Always avoidable!

If someone has finished but still has food on their plate then no one wants to ask if they have finished as it could seem rude. Especially restaurant staff. It's just basic manners to make it clear you have finished. You are suggesting staff studiously watch when each person at each table last took a mouthful to judge if they have finished and go around asking each person if they have completed. Stupid idea. Just put your knife and fork together to indicate to everyone that you are done. Make life work. Make it simple. That's the essence of manners. Make life pleasant for others.

Sorry but he sounds awful. You don't need to be brought up in a family that teaches manners to figure out everything you have outlined.
Serves himself alone and sits down to eat??? Is he blind to everyone else? Does he think guests will go and serve themselves? If he can't tell he is boring people and can't hide when he is bored maybe he is ND. Surely no one can be as clueless as he is. He has eyes and ears. He has experienced life. We don't just learn from our parents.

@underthemilky

Having worked in a fair few waiting jobs in the past, it's very common to make eye contact with one or two members of a party who appear to have finished but may not have done, and they indicate with simple body language that they're ready for you to take their plate.

Yes, the staff should be aware of the progress of the meal, and have an eye on which tables are likely to be moving onto the next course soon.

Not putting your knife and fork together isn't rude or making anything complicated, or making anybody's life harder, or any of the other items from your long list of sins... it simply doesn't matter. You can tell whether a person has finished eating by being a good waiter, not by the customer obeying the rules.

When going to others homes who are hosting I always help clean up afterwards.

Also, when I am eating out I gather all the dishes when done and stack them together and scrape everything onto one plate etc. so it is easier for the waiters assistant to clean up.

Have you discussed with your husband how rude this behaviour is? Does he want to be perceived as a rude boorish person? Plenty of people are badly brought up but when they start moving in better circles they realise their behaviour needs to change and want to make improvements. Obviously it's harder as an adult to change but it's perfectly possible with some effort.
If you have discussed it and he refuses to change then sadly you've been lumbered with a very selfish inconsiderate man. In that case just tell your children that how daddy behaves is generally considered to be rude and you don't want anyone to think they are as rude.