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Angela Rayner - political hypocrite, yes or no?

283 replies

Agnes12 · 26/02/2024 08:21

Whatever the ins and outs, Angela says she is “proud” to have bought her council house 20 years ago under RTB. Angela has been a long-term Labour supporter and has come up through the Labour/Trade Union movement. I find it quite surprising that she has then bought a state owned asset, later sold at a profit.

I have never agreed with RTB but recognise for if you are given that opportunity you are probably going to take it. However for someone who purports to be a socialist isn’t this a tad hypocritical? Or doesn’t it matter and she should be allowed to take advantage of the scheme as she qualified?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
1dayatatime · 27/02/2024 09:32

@Startingagainandagain

What is the issue here?

+++

Potentially fraudulent capital gains tax avoidance that should be investigated by HMRC and the police for false electoral role registration.

IClaudine · 27/02/2024 09:34

it's a criminal offence to say on the electoral register that you are living at an address when you don't)

No it isn't. You can be registered at more than one property if you spend time there. What you can't do is vote twice in a GE.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/voting-and-elections/who-can-vote/other-registration-options/voting-and-second-homes

But don't let facts get in the way.

IClaudine · 27/02/2024 09:40

1dayatatime · 27/02/2024 09:32

@Startingagainandagain

What is the issue here?

+++

Potentially fraudulent capital gains tax avoidance that should be investigated by HMRC and the police for false electoral role registration.

Why would any one investigate yarns that you have spun on here?

There is no evidence at the moment to suggest she has done anything wrong. If evidence comes to light, then she should go. Just like the Tory MP who was found to owe millions in tax. He stepped down as an MP, didn't he🤔?
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nadhim-zahawi-tax-hmrc-investigation-b2262565.html

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

rwalker · 27/02/2024 10:08

Diefrausagtnein · 27/02/2024 09:06

@rwalker more things are shit directly because of the Tories or because the Tories have spent more time moaning about immigration that doing anything positive. They had the chance to level up, didn’t work. Remember the Northern Powerhouse, that didn’t either. HS2 another bloody failure. They are simply incompetent. Why on earth would Labour be worse ? Intelligent people for the main part, why not at least give them a go. If they don’t perform, vote them out. Simple.

I’m not and never had said there not

but if your going to throw your hat in the ring to fix it we need to know how rather than just bitching about the current lot

Onand · 27/02/2024 10:13

Not sure why this is such an issue- more or less all of my family bought their council houses back in the 90s, they’d have never got onto the property ladder otherwise and the housing stock would have been left to rot away had they and their neighbours not taken ownership when they did. AR has done nothing wrong.

Naptrappedmummy · 27/02/2024 10:35

I imagine her socialist principles were a bit underdeveloped at that stage of her life; she probably didn’t really think about it much at the time. HOWEVER - I do find it very 🙄 when somebody who has made a gain in life, or has something, then argues it would be immoral for others to do the same or that they don’t need it. And seek to deprive other people of what they have. She would do well to stay out of it tbh.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 27/02/2024 10:39

BIossomtoes · 27/02/2024 08:25

Indirectly her money is going to India because it gets money from our foreign aid budget. As the wife of the British PM and a resident of the UK this is where she should pay her taxes. If India can afford to run a space programme it can afford to lose Mrs Sunak’s taxes.

That is a tenuous link, but a form of response that is the norm for those, generally on the left, who when challenged on facts they can't actually refute attempt to move the debate onto another point rather than accept that they might actually be wrong.

It feels like you are trying to argue that India, with a population where 84% of the population lives on less than £5.50 a day shouldn't receive foreign aid from a country that for nearly 100 years was under British rule, with all of the uncomfortable consequences that has brought? And that a developing country shouldn't have the right to develop by investing in programmes that will lead to technological advances on which future growth and prosperity for its people can be built?

Good to see that the left are as compassionate, outward looking and forward thinking as ever ;)

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/02/2024 10:39

Not sure why this is such an issue...
It's not. It is a complete non-issue that reeks of Tory desperation.

IClaudine · 27/02/2024 10:41

Naptrappedmummy · 27/02/2024 10:35

I imagine her socialist principles were a bit underdeveloped at that stage of her life; she probably didn’t really think about it much at the time. HOWEVER - I do find it very 🙄 when somebody who has made a gain in life, or has something, then argues it would be immoral for others to do the same or that they don’t need it. And seek to deprive other people of what they have. She would do well to stay out of it tbh.

HOWEVER - I do find it very 🙄 when somebody who has made a gain in life, or has something, then argues it would be immoral for others to do the same or that they don’t need it

I do find it very 🙄 when people make things up. This is what she actually said:

In an interview with i, shadow Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Secretary Ms Rayner said she believes that council tenants should be able to buy their homes but that the policy should be reviewed to make sure it is good value for the taxpayer and that affordable housing stock is not lost.

She said: “I grew up in the same council house my mum and dad have [lived in the same one] for 30 years – it’s their home. But the point is that we’ve got to make sure that [Right to Buy] is fair and equitable to the public purse, to taxpayers and that we can then build more affordable housing off the back of it.”

“That’s an important balance,” she added. “I don’t think we’re quite there yet.”

inews.co.uk/news/labour-consider-changing-right-to-buy-council-houses-policy-stop-social-homes-lost-2753799

BIossomtoes · 27/02/2024 11:09

Tryingtokeepgoing · 27/02/2024 10:39

That is a tenuous link, but a form of response that is the norm for those, generally on the left, who when challenged on facts they can't actually refute attempt to move the debate onto another point rather than accept that they might actually be wrong.

It feels like you are trying to argue that India, with a population where 84% of the population lives on less than £5.50 a day shouldn't receive foreign aid from a country that for nearly 100 years was under British rule, with all of the uncomfortable consequences that has brought? And that a developing country shouldn't have the right to develop by investing in programmes that will lead to technological advances on which future growth and prosperity for its people can be built?

Good to see that the left are as compassionate, outward looking and forward thinking as ever ;)

I’d be perfectly happy to see India receive foreign aid if it spent the money on improving the lives of its people. Unfortunately it doesn’t, hence the extreme poverty of so many of its citizens. Insulting someone who disagrees with you doesn’t make your argument any more credible.

Clutterbugsmum · 27/02/2024 11:16

Onand · 27/02/2024 10:13

Not sure why this is such an issue- more or less all of my family bought their council houses back in the 90s, they’d have never got onto the property ladder otherwise and the housing stock would have been left to rot away had they and their neighbours not taken ownership when they did. AR has done nothing wrong.

Exactly.

If my parents would never have got on the property ladder. And If my mum hadn't been able to sell that property and buy one outright she would be able to afford rent on her small pension. But because she did she now able to live relatively well on her less then minimum wage pension.

SnapdragonToadflax · 27/02/2024 11:20

The problem is that housing stock was not replaced. The policy (and its effects) is at fault, not someone taking advantage of it. She did something which was legal and gave her social mobility - how was she to know she'd end up a Labour MP? It was a mad policy because without endless house building councils could never keep up with the houses being sold... but of course that was never Thatcher's plan.

Likewise private schools - I would prefer they didn't exist at all and that funding was equal across all areas and schools, but as they do exist I see no reason people shouldn't use them if they can. (We don't, we can't afford it.) You have to be pragmatic.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2024 11:30

Alexandra2001 · 26/02/2024 08:31

She wasn't an MP or even a candidate, what she did was legal and tbh, 20 years ago, the real damage of RTB wasn't as widely known about.

Is Sunak a Hypocrite because he uses a Helicopter to get around on & pays just 23% tax on earnings of £2.5m?

What do you think is more damaging?

20 years ago the effects of right to buy WERE well known. It was 2004 and I remember having conversations with my then boyfriend about it. Seeing as I've not seen him since, I guess I'm either delusional or admitting that there's been awareness of the problem for decades but fuck all has happened to change it.

That said, given Rayners position at the time, I think you'd have to be a militant hardliner to cut off your nose to spite your face and not do it. So I don't blame her. We've been taught to see property as an investment in our future and if you don't participate in that you either limit yourself to staying in Council Properties indefinitely or you financially handicap yourself compared to homeowners (who are much more likely to have financial support from family in some way - even if that's subsided accommodation whilst living with parents rather than a chuck towards a deposit).

However she does need to take ownership of that properly rather than the PR spin of it.

Angrymum22 · 27/02/2024 11:35

BIossomtoes · 26/02/2024 23:48

Frankly I don’t remember any government making any tangible improvement over the last 42 years.

You must have been asleep from 1997 to 2010 then.

I’m an ex NHS dentist. Ex because the last 16 yrs have been the worst of my career after Labour brought in the new contract. I didn’t quit because of the money, but because the lack of funds was seriously stretching my ethical and moral standards. I now work very part time privately providing the standard of treatment I am comfortable with.
Yes, the Tories could have changed things but the Labour parties intent was to privatise dentistry, the Tories have carried it out.
Many of the changes to the NHS that have resulted in chronic underfunding were Labour changes.
I no longer believe or trust any party to sort out the NHS.
I am making sure that my DS has private cover while he is a student then it’s up to him to carry in, and that we have a ring fenced fund for private consultations for DH and me.
If it means I can’t afford a holiday every year then so be it. I have learned over the last two years how important health is, a couple of weeks in the Caribbean just doesn’t compare.
I am glad I listened to the advice I was given on qualifying “make sure you maximise your pensions potential” I have been able to retire comfortably. It was not cheap though.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2024 11:43

SnapdragonToadflax · 27/02/2024 11:20

The problem is that housing stock was not replaced. The policy (and its effects) is at fault, not someone taking advantage of it. She did something which was legal and gave her social mobility - how was she to know she'd end up a Labour MP? It was a mad policy because without endless house building councils could never keep up with the houses being sold... but of course that was never Thatcher's plan.

Likewise private schools - I would prefer they didn't exist at all and that funding was equal across all areas and schools, but as they do exist I see no reason people shouldn't use them if they can. (We don't, we can't afford it.) You have to be pragmatic.

Issues with a lack of replacing building stock go back at least 50 years.

It's not a new issue.

1dayatatime · 27/02/2024 11:58

@IClaudine

Yes if she split her time between the two addresses. In which case she should have stated two addresses on her electoral register nominating only one for voting.

However she didn't do that. She stated on her electoral registration that she was only living at her own house and not her husband's.

It seems strange that someone would get married and then separately to their new husband.

The police would get involved if it was shown that she knowingly provided false information on her voter registration which is a criminal offence.

Either way it needs to be investigated and she needs to prove that she was indeed living in her own house and not her husband's.

But from the outside and regardless of your own personal politics it looks like she did this to avoid paying CGT.

1dayatatime · 27/02/2024 12:05

@IClaudine

"Why would any one investigate yarns that you have spun on here?

There is no evidence at the moment to suggest she has done anything wrong"

+++

Because it is potential fraudulent capital gains tax evasion.

It is not "yarns" it is based on her own twitter feeds (links provided in previous post):
She confirmed she didn't pay CGT because it was her primary personal residence.
She stated that after getting married she lived separately to her husband.
Her children when born were registered as living at her husband's address.

Seriously do you not see anything suspicious about a woman who gets married but then claims to live separately to her husband and then has children but claims to live separately to her children. And then conveniently avoids paying CGT?

Either way it needs investigating.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 27/02/2024 12:06

BIossomtoes · 27/02/2024 11:09

I’d be perfectly happy to see India receive foreign aid if it spent the money on improving the lives of its people. Unfortunately it doesn’t, hence the extreme poverty of so many of its citizens. Insulting someone who disagrees with you doesn’t make your argument any more credible.

There are no insults in my post, just observations, opinions and questions, which we are all entitled to. If you disagree with my interpretation, that's fine. Questioning the credibility of my points is also fine, when countered with facts. But what I am not going to do is be bounced into a different debate because you don't agree with my points but can't or won't articulate why, so want to shift the discussion as a distraction from that.

Perhaps you can see and agree (or debate) that developing a technology programme, be it around space or something else, means that future growth and prosperity that will benefit the country and its population is more likely to happen, and be sustainable, than not investing in those areas. It's what the now developed world has done; should that choice not be available to the less developed countries?

It's clearly working as India is the fastest growing major economy in the world. It's poverty rate is also declining rapidly (down by more than 50% in 10 years) precisely because of Government programmes, so I am not sure why you are of the opinion that it isn't. Perhaps you know something the World Bank doesn't?

Maybe you are right. Maybe India doesn't need Mrs Sunak's tax as much as we do. But I think their need is greater, and I think the impact it will have on improving the life of the average Indian is much more than it will have by going into HMRCs coffers to assuage some faux political outrage whipped up to attack Rishi.

Let's be honest, it really wouldn't be difficult for Labour to target the Tories by focussing on policy, but for some reason they, like politicians of all colours would rather attack individuals than have a facts based debate. Which is what's repeated here. I blame Tony and the culture of spin for the collapse of trust in politicians and the decline in our political landscape ;)

Using legitimate tax planning tools to reduce ones tax is absolutely fine. Calling them loopholes is akin to calling pension contributions a loophole - actually a legitimate tax avoidance technique. Tax evasion by manipulating thing so that you don't pay the correct level of CGT, or benefit from RTB discounts that should be repaid because the property wasn't actually where you lived is not fine.

The allegations made against Angela are clear, and easily and quickly refutable if not true. In 2007 she purchased a property under RTB with a discount. In 2010 she got married, registered her children to her husbands address, stayed on the electoral role at her own address, her brother moved to her address, and in 2010 she sold the property, So assuming that the rental income from her brother has had the appropriate amount of tax paid, the CGT was declared in the relevant year and the appropriate amount of discount repaid (as she doesn't appear to have lived there for the necessary 5 years) to the council then there's nothing to see here.

cardibach · 27/02/2024 12:15

1dayatatime · 27/02/2024 09:10

@Alexandra2001

"Well, seeing as you don't know how much she spent on the house nor CGT allowances at the time, you wouldn't know the CGT owed."

++++
Not that difficult to work out.

She made a £48,500 profit on the sale.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-rayner-labour-lord-ashcroft-b2502151.html

The capital gains tax threshold is 2015/16 was £11,100. The CGT rate was 28%.

So she avoided £10,472 of tax by claiming it was her principal primary residence and that despite being married she was not actually living with her husband.

Look I get that Sunak legally avoids paying much larger sums of tax but like it or not (and until the loopholes are closed) this is not illegal. If he did do anything illegal then absolutely yes he should be investigated by HMRC.

On the face of it what Angela Rayner did and her defence looks very shaky and absolutely yes she should be investigated for fraudulent tax evasion.

Except that since she didn’t own her husband’s house, I don’t think it matters. It’s not a second home, it wasn’t a business premises, and if it wasn’t let out it isn’t eligible for CGT anyway. Image from the Which? Website.

Angela Rayner - political hypocrite, yes or no?
Alexandra2001 · 27/02/2024 12:25

Angrymum22 · 27/02/2024 11:35

I’m an ex NHS dentist. Ex because the last 16 yrs have been the worst of my career after Labour brought in the new contract. I didn’t quit because of the money, but because the lack of funds was seriously stretching my ethical and moral standards. I now work very part time privately providing the standard of treatment I am comfortable with.
Yes, the Tories could have changed things but the Labour parties intent was to privatise dentistry, the Tories have carried it out.
Many of the changes to the NHS that have resulted in chronic underfunding were Labour changes.
I no longer believe or trust any party to sort out the NHS.
I am making sure that my DS has private cover while he is a student then it’s up to him to carry in, and that we have a ring fenced fund for private consultations for DH and me.
If it means I can’t afford a holiday every year then so be it. I have learned over the last two years how important health is, a couple of weeks in the Caribbean just doesn’t compare.
I am glad I listened to the advice I was given on qualifying “make sure you maximise your pensions potential” I have been able to retire comfortably. It was not cheap though.

NHS dentistry was a mess long before the new contract, i haven't been able to get a NHS dentist since 1992.
My DD, born in 1999, has never had an NHS, i remember writing to Ben Bradshaw who was a Lab minister for Health, got no where, i think we are both still on the waiting list he advised me to put her on! lol!

Bottom line is the NHS can never afford to match what a dentist can charge in the private sector.

Dentists are human beings, v few will take a lower income in order to treat anyone.
They wont even offer children free check ups around here, such is their greed.

BobnLen · 27/02/2024 12:32

Except that since she didn’t own her husband’s house, I don’t think it matters. It’s not a second home, it wasn’t a business premises, and if it wasn’t let out it isn’t eligible for CGT anyway. Image from the Which? Website.

A married couple can only have one main residence, I don't think they can have one each.

cardibach · 27/02/2024 12:36

BobnLen · 27/02/2024 12:32

Except that since she didn’t own her husband’s house, I don’t think it matters. It’s not a second home, it wasn’t a business premises, and if it wasn’t let out it isn’t eligible for CGT anyway. Image from the Which? Website.

A married couple can only have one main residence, I don't think they can have one each.

You are right, of course. Apologies.
However, it’s still all speculation. As others have said, if she’s done something wrong she should receive a suitable consequence.

1dayatatime · 27/02/2024 12:37

@Tryingtokeepgoing

"So assuming that the rental income from her brother has had the appropriate amount of tax paid, the CGT was declared in the relevant year and the appropriate amount of discount repaid (as she doesn't appear to have lived there for the necessary 5 years) to the council then there's nothing to see here."
+++

However she has confirmed on her twitter feed that she did not pay any CGT as she claims she chose to live separately to her husband (and later on separately to her children) thereby claiming it was her principal primary residence and avoided CGT.

BIossomtoes · 27/02/2024 12:40

cardibach · 27/02/2024 12:36

You are right, of course. Apologies.
However, it’s still all speculation. As others have said, if she’s done something wrong she should receive a suitable consequence.

She’s not right. There’s no law that says married couples must live together. It’s perfectly possible for them to have separate main residences. Helena Bonham Carter and her husband never lived together.

1dayatatime · 27/02/2024 12:41

PPR relief is a tax relief available on the sale or transfer of the main home. A married couple can only have one PPR between them. These rules are detailed at TCGA 1992, s 222(6). The result of this is that they must choose which property will be their joint main home for tax purposes. This means that one will be exempt from capital gains tax and the other will be subject to capital gains tax.
This is a really tricky concept to explain to couples and it only impacts married couples. Once a couple have separated, they are each entitled to PPR relief on their own properties from the point of separation
So I guess she could in theory claim that she immediately separated from her husband on the day she got married. But how they then went on to have children would be interesting to explain away.