Confused about Trans and NonBinary

[CactusMactus]

I am going to get terminologies wrong here... soz in advance.
Friends gown up daughter-at-birth has recently had top surgery to become trans. She has used pronouns 'they/them' for a while and continues to consider themselves non-binary.
I don't understand how that works. Surely if you are trans you have changed from she/her to he/him not she/her to they/them.
Does one transition to non-binary?
Genuin question...

Clear and accurate language always matters when we talk about parts of our bodies.

I remember a poster who was a primary teacher. A female pupil said that her "uncle licked my cookie" so she said "well get another one then". A short while later, the mother of this girl happened to mention that her daughter "had a rash on her cookie". At this point the poster realised that the girl hadn't been talking about a biscuit.

You see why using euphemisms to describe stuff relating to our bodies can be harmful?

👆🏻

Clear and accurate language always matters when we talk about parts of our bodies.

Yep. It's a double mastectomy.

It's like grieving someone getting a breast reduction.

It's really not. Some of the genre ideology devotees here are going to get a wake-up call one day methinks.

Surely if you declare yourself 'non binary' that then actually makes you binary?

Top surgery is not self-harm, the same way knee surgery is not self-harm

Knee surgery would be self harm if someone found a surgeon who was reckless enough (££££) to remove their knee joint because that person truly believed they would feel their authentic self if they lived life as someone without one. The surgeon may well find themselves struck off and their psychiatric colleagues would be involved.

what a bizarre example to use.

top surgery is the correct medical term. You don’t have to agree with it or like it.

”Cookie” I’m pretty sure, is not ever listed on an NHS website.

But top marks for sneaking in yet more talk about pedophiles in a discussion about non binary and trans folks.

My personal view is that trans ideology is a religious-like belief system, and one which is pretty misogynist and homophobic. Despite my opinions on it, I'm happy to agree that it's important not to suggest all trans people welcome MAPs or support paedophilia. I'm sure most don't.

I accept you feel differently about trans ideology. I wonder if you'd be able to look at the other part of my post? The part that lists the loopholes in trans ideology that leave it open for exploitation by MAPs? Is it possible to be a trans ally and also critically engage with that stuff?

Some examples would be: the use of euphemisms rather than anatomically correct terms for genitals; telling children to disbelieve their own eyes and that some males are women, "it's not your business what's in somebody's pants" etc; prioritising people's feelings about their own identity over their responsibilities towards the rest of society; encouraging "acceptance without exception"; normalising the presence of males in women's spaces; encouraging professionals to keep secrets from children's parents; encouraging children to trust adults on the internet and keep secrets from their parents.

I really hope it is. Otherwise it kind of suggests that you think that long list of safeguarding issues is inherent/ necessary to the trans experience. And wouldn't that be nearly as offensive as a PP suggesting all trans people welcome paedophilia?

I am not replying to your other points because I take no issue with them.

my issue is the constant lumping together of sex offenders and non binary/trans folks. Its lazy.

its very rarely in the examples of loopholes and potential safeguarding issues things like Self ID bring as per response. Yes, I do agree that men will abuse the system, we can already see they do.

The correct term is bilateral subcutaneous mastectomy.

Thankfully in the UK we have drawn back on affirming children, thanks to the Cass review of UK Gender Identity clinics -

The US paints a different picture.

Apologies for the Daily Mail link but thank goodness we don't allow or encourage children to be lured into asking to 'yeet the teets'.

This surgeon put tik tok videos up and made double mastectomies look 'fun'. She is now being investigated.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11533471/Campaigners-urge-Florida-health-chiefs-probe-Miami-trans-operation-doctor-TikTok-scandal.html

Notwithstanding the fact that Gallagher appears to have suspended her social media accounts etc, in the US 776 children had double mastectomies (aged between 13 and 17 ) in 3 years 2019 to 2021 compared with 56 children (m to f)having genital surgery (castration).

Source Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/#:~:text=The%20data%20include%20roughly%2040,by%20U.S.%20clinicians%20and%20facilities.

Reuters also has done an investigation into detransition - extract -

“People are terrified to do this research,” she said.

For this article, Reuters spoke to 17 people who began medical transition as minors and said they now regretted some or all of their transition. Many said they realized only after transitioning that they were homosexual, or they always knew they were lesbian or gay but felt, as adolescents, that it was safer or more desirable to transition to a gender that made them heterosexual. Others said sexual abuse or assault made them want to leave the gender associated with that trauma. Many also said they had autism or mental health issues such as bipolar disorder that complicated their search for identity as teenagers.
Echoing what MacKinnon has found in his work, nearly all of these young people told Reuters that they wished their doctors or therapists had more fully discussed these complicating factors before allowing them to medically transition.
No large-scale studies have tracked people who received gender care as adolescents to determine how many remained satisfied with their treatment as they aged and how many eventually regretted transitioning. The studies that have been done have yielded a wide range of findings, and even the most rigorous of them have severe limitations. Some focus on people who began treatment as adults, not adolescents. Some follow patients for only a short period of time, while others lose track of a significant number of patients.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/

All of the points about the vulnerabilities of those seeking double mastectomies remain in those over the age of 18.

In the US Obamacare said that trans 'healthcare' could not be excluded from insurance.

It's hard to argue that these surgeries provide an income source for surgeons such as Gallagher.

Top surgery is not self-harm, the same way knee surgery is not self-harm.

A double masectomy for a young woman experiencing psychological distress, very likely as a result of social contagion, and which she may well regret as it will prevent her breastfeeding a child if she detransitions, as many do, is not remotely comparable with knee surgery to relieve the crippling effects of osteoarthritis in the elderly.
Even to attempt this comparison shows a lack of understanding of any of the issues involved.

If someone is having a medical procedure like a breast reduction, then I agree that it’s nothing to do with anyone else.

But it absolutely is other people’s business when it’s accompanied by demands to acknowledge and celebrate someone choosing to remove their healthy body parts, or face being accused of bigotry and transphobia.

top surgery is the correct medical term. You don’t have to agree with it or like it.

I don’t think you understand the term, “medical term”.

”Top surgery” is a euphemism, a colloquialism and not remotely technical medical language.

But it absolutely is other people’s business when it’s accompanied by demands to acknowledge and celebrate someone choosing to remove their healthy body parts, or face being accused of bigotry and transphobia.

Also, as citizens, it is within our rights, and also potentially our responsibility, to shout out practices that are dangerous and harmful. This is not about individuals (a very individualistic and neoliberal way of thinking) but about challenging harmful cultural norms and the linking of these to broader systemic oppression and disadvantage such as that experienced by women, girls, and lesbians.

Top surgery is one medical term of many. It’s also known as chest wall surgery, chest reconstruction, chest contouring surgery, mastectomy, and masculizing chest surgery (amongst others).

top surgery is the correct medical term.

I have to take issue with this, medical terms are very precise for a reason.
Top surgery is not a medical term as it could refer to anywhere in the top half of your body. Surgeons really do like to check that they're doing precisely the right surgery before you go in.

its also a term used?! You can google it. As PP said it’s one of many terms used.
don’t gaslight people into thinking they’ve just made it up, because they haven’t. It’s a listed medical definition used in the NHS.

And yet you can find it in dozens of NHS literatures and websites. Its an accepted term to use.

funny that.

I'm not saying it's not a term that is used in general, but I can guarantee that on your medical notes it won't be used. A few people upthread have given the medical definitions.

I also googled it out of interest, the first three in order are :
1 : Top surgery is surgery that removes or augments breast tissue and reshapes the nipples and chest to create a more masculine or feminine appearance for transgender and nonbinary people.

2: What is the point of top surgery?
The overall intent of the surgery is to reduce the amount that the tibia shifts forward during a stride. This is accomplished by making a semicircular cut through the top of the tibia, rotating the top of the tibia, and using a bone plate to allow the tibia to heal.

3: How much does top surgery cost?
In general, the cost of FTM Top Surgery ranges from $6000–$10,000 USD.

followed by a list of different prices for different top surgery options.
Someone is making some $$££££ from this....

"Marginalized community". <Rolls eyes>

'Top surgery' is a gaslighting euphemism for an elective bilateral subcutaneous mastectomy that seeks to hide the serious and disfiguring nature of this completely unnecessary surgery where there is no real medical reason or pathology for it.

It’s accepted as a colloquialism, not as “medical terminology”.

You find many words in NHS literature and on websites. That doesn’t make them all medical terms.

Why is it that for a group of people that get so upset/triggered when they are mis-labeled, that you insist on forcefully labelling another group of people?

Just FYI, you are not seen as a threat to "cis" women, Just women.

Some of the genre ideology devotees here are going to get a wake-up call one day methinks
What does that even mean?
Still not sure why on earth someone would grieve over a grown adults decision over their own body, you left that bit off your quote