Essex dog attack: Man arrested after woman dies in Jaywick

[SerendipityJane]

Not much to say really.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-68197109

Ok, you have convinced me messyhair.
We should cull all breeds to be in the safe side.

Breed is undoubtedly part of the problem. if you look here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=A%202021%20study%20of%20fatal,%2C%20and%20Poland%20(%235).
you'll see not a single Labrador - and they must be one of the most easily-identified breeds in the UK.
One man died of bite from his spaniel (he'd been playing tug with her, the bite was accidental and became infected).
There's the odd small terrier on the list, but most of the rest is bull breeds, with a few GSDs, huskies, rotties and similar thrown into the mix.

But I've slowly become convinced that banning a breed just brings a temporary respite, and then another breed pops up. So, possibly, licensing dogs - or at least the power breeds with a predisposition to bite really dangerously - is the answer. Insurance, background checks, the lot - similar to owning a firearm.

No @Messyhair321 you are not getting it. Shih Tzus do not maul people to death because of their size and power. They are wee fluffy things, yes might give you a bite, easy to stamp on or kick away. XL bullies are too powerful to do that and once they start to attack, don't stop. This is why they need banned. The whole "oh well any dog can be aggressive, I was once bitten by a labrador/cocker spaniel/border collie" is a total red herring. This PARTICULAR BREED kills.

I can't believe after the past year or so this is still having to be explained to people who want to defend people's right to own these chav beasts.

But I've slowly become convinced that banning a breed just brings a temporary respite, and then another breed pops up. So, possibly, licensing dogs - or at least the power breeds with a predisposition to bite really dangerously - is the answer. Insurance, background checks, the lot - similar to owning a firearm.

The problem with this is that no one will monitor it. You won’t know if your neighbour has a licence for their Lab or their Rottie. The police won’t check (they’re too busy tormenting Christian buskers). Underground dog breeders will thrive. It’s a nice solution but it won’t work.

Ultimately, the only solution is banning particular breeds. It’s a bandaid. But that’s the only viable option IMO.

You have been bitten twice, by two different dogs and yet you are here to tell the tale? Perhaps that is because neither of the dogs that attacked you were an XL Bully?

Absolutely no-one has said that other breeds of dogs can't bite or show aggression. Of course all different types of dogs can bite. You have been bit by a Jack Russel and a Springer Spaniel - no problem believing that. But it is more likely that you would be struck by lightening than be killed by either of those breeds. Not true of XL bullies.

*All dogs are capable of attack. The most aggressive I've known are the smaller breeds such as shih Tzu, jack russels & occasionallly breeds such as dobermans.

Why do people keep trotting out this absolute rubbish? When was the last time you heard about an adult being savaged to death by a shih tzu?*

All dogs are capable of turning aggressive, and Jack Russells are known for it. But 1) if a dog has a smaller mouth, teeth and bite strength, any attack is unlikely to be deadly (much like cats, cats don’t generally kill people but they can attack, they’re just too small for it to be deadly)
and 2) if a dog is a breed that’s bred to attack and fight then attacking is more likely than with most dogs.
and 3) if a dog is poorly trained and kept then aggression could be more likely.

With XLs you often have all 3 - big powerful dog, bred for attacking/fighting temperament, and irresponsible or aggressive owner. (Because that’s who big aggressive dogs often appeal to)

PP wasn’t saying that shih tzus go round killing people.

Oh my God. 9 week old puppies killed and ate their litter mates, down to the head.

It's definitely the breed.

As much as I agree another breed pops up. I don’t think I’ve seen a situation where there were such a proliferation of a dangerous breed and so many deaths in such a short period in the uk.

the issue is idiot owners think they are status symbols, that they really can control it, that they are soft and loveable. Because as yet the dog hasn’t attacked. They fail to realise, that as much as they may never, it is highly feasible they will. And it only takes the once. You can’t stop it. And the person will die.

Being bitten by a cocker or a terrier is no where near the same, you are so much more powerful than the dog.

with xl bully breeds, the line is now so interbred they are bred from the most aggressive of the litter. Something you won’t know until the day it turns. And the dogs are so powerful.

the pictures don’t do them justice. It is not until you see one in the flesh, you realise full well there is nothing the owner can do to stop it. And when they are attacking, the owners voice, no matter how loud or demanding isn’t going to stop it. Nor can they get in about it, as it will attack them too. The only person who can stop it is a police marksman with a gun.

There's no reasoning with stupid.
I think some of the posters here are or have been XL Bully owners.
They will continue to stick up for these ridiculous breeds no matter what.

This is bringing out the snobbery in people. There's a real problem with grading people on socioeconomic status. Humans are equal,

Really? Scientific evidence demonstrates unequivocally that they aren't. For example, some people are intelligent, some are not. Some are decent human beings and some are psychopaths. People from some countries have biological differences that make them innately better at certain things, like long distance running. People are not all identical and equal in their skills and abilities, including their ability to be functioning members of a civilised society. It is pointless to pretend that everybody is the same and there aren't differences in values, culture, ethics etc between different parts of the population when it's quite obvious that such differences exist. Acknowledging reality isn't "snobbery".

In this case, it is very clear that a large proportion of the people who own these dogs fit a certain profile as several posters have noted. After all, why on earth would anybody who accepts the generally accepted cultural norms and values of British society want to own an animal that has been proven to be so dangerous? The only two possible explanations are that they do not share the same ethics as the majority of the population, or are not intelligent enough to make a rational choice based on the available data.

Delusional defensive bullshit. Stop being in denial. Dogs are a product of their surroundings?? BS. These dogs are biological predisposed to KILL. Attack and kill. Their build, their temperament their genetic make up. It’s not propaganda ITS STATISTICAL, UNDENIABLE FACT that these dogs are REPEATEDLY KILLING PEOPLE. People like YOU denying this are part of the problem. Open your damn eyes.

They are from parents which (it seems) are a proscribed type, it stands to reason that they will be the same.

It can take 3 years for one of these dogs to reach adulthood - but even if they are "diagnosed" at a much younger age - say 9 months - that is 9 months that the dog has had to bond with the kennel staff, who will be upset to see them destroyed; 9 months that "animal lovers" will say shows that they are 'safe", 9 months when they are not being socialised and not learning how to live with people or other animals, and in practical terms 9 months of expense.

Kennels are full of lovely dogs - abandoned, abused, strayed, there because of family bereavement etc. There aren't enough good homes for these poor creatures. It is wrong to deliberately raise a dog to adulthood when its chances of being re-homed are slight.

Even from the dogs' perspective, it would be kinder to euthanise them now.

Spot on!

I honestly don't understand what it will take for some people to actually see the basic facts involved.

Environment does play a role but dogs' temperament is a combination of genetics & environment (particularly early development). We see this in Welsh border collies who still exhibit huge amounts of herding behaviours, despite living in pet homes and coming from 'pet bred' parents. In the case of XL's, it is absolutely undeniable that these dogs have the very strong genetic characteristic of powerful aggression coupled with a will to fight to the death and often what appears to be a hair-trigger. A deadly combination that is seen as desirable and a trait actively bred for (hence how we got here).

A whole paragraph and not a word of truth.

Sadly, it's a classic case of this.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxk1cyYJe-o

Maybe they'll start to believe it at the moment where their beloved "Bullie" decides to eat their face.

The thing is, most dogs will growl first as a warning and when they do bite it’s a nip or a bite and release. They may come back for more but it’s not relentless and if someone else came over and started thumping them with a bat/spade/other they would soon stop and run away - even the German Shepherds and Rottie types. They have strong self preservation. They also aren’t anywhere near as muscular so your average human is strong enough to hold them back.

The bully types seem to grab on and not let go and keep going back for more despite being smacked hard over the head repeatedly with a spade. I’ve seen videos where they just don’t seem to notice they are being hit. That’s where the problem lies. You can’t scare them or distract them from their task.

Being bitten by a cocker or a terrier is no where near the same, you are so much more powerful than the dog.

It isn't just that.

Most breeds have a "bite inhibition" - that is, they will snap, or even bite if they are provoked, frightened, or over-excited when playing, but then realise what they have done and stop. Their bite is effectively a warning of "you've gone this far - but no further" and they don't go further either. Almost all dogs, when fighting with other dogs, will accept a "surrender" from their opponent and stop when they have won. Very few dogs put their full force into a bite - they hold back because instinct tells them that in a fight they could also get hurt.

These XL bullies:

a) have been bred to enjoy fighting - they get a huge adrenaline rush from it. This not only makes them aggressive but also anaesthetises them to much of the pain an animal would normally feel when being bitten/ struck. Hitting them to "get them off" just increases the violence because they see themselves as under attack.

b) have a very hight prey drive. The yelping/ screaming/ whimpering of their prey excites them even further. They don't accept a "surrender". They just continue the aggression.

c) they are very dominant and know their own power. Most breeds again, accept that their owner is the one in charge. These dogs don't seem to. They are very aware of their own strength, and as a previous poster wrote "you are in charge until the dog decides you aren't". They don't hold back because they know they are powerful, and they know that their opponent doesn't astand a chance (unless it is the same breed, of course - but then it would be a power struggle to the death anyway, as neither would give in.)

d) they are unpredictable. It seems many give no warning growl, and just attack - and the attacks can come out of the blue. Once the first move has been made their prey drive kicks in and they are almost impossible to stop - they really, truly, get into a "zone"* were they are unaware of anything around them - all that is real for them is the creature they are attacking.

e) they fight/ attack because they enjoy it. Not because they have been abused, not because they are threatened - because they ENJOY it. This can't be over-emphasised.

Add this to the sheer size and strength of the dog, and you have a killing machine that can't be trusted.

*I have seen a dog in this state - not one of these thank heavens, it was a very bad bred and over-aggressive border collie - and it was the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life.

Edited to add. Many of these will also have been encouraged to attack and kill smaller dogs and cats. The sort of people who weaponise them will do this (so never re-home your pet if you don't know exactly where it is going). And it wouldn't surprise me if many o them had also been encouraged to chase and snap at people.

It's human beings that do the damage.

Oh, just like it's not guns that kill people, it's humans?

Ffs. It's humans breeding dogs as weapons that's the problem. Not an either/or.

DH commented that some breeds of dogs are the orcs of the canine world, with XL bullies being deliberately created as the Uruk-hai.

A Woman was standing outside DGS’s primary school gates with one last week, it was muzzled thank fuck but she could barely control it, it was straining it’s harness, trying to rise up. My DGS was terrified, I hadn’t seen one up close before, it was solid muscle with a neck as thick as it’s ugly head.

Who brings one to a school where small kids are running around shouting?

@ErrolTheDragon the Uruk-hai analogy is brilliant.

Take several breeds bred originally for fighting, add some mastiffs bred for guarding, then breed the most muscle bound individuals to their parents & siblings & you have your ultimate fighter.

Possibly a niche reference, but if anyone's a gaming fan there is a monster in the Fallout games called the super mutant hound. It looks exactly like a XL bully.

The man arrested in this case has been bailed until March.

He is responsible for a woman's death, how on earth has he been let back into the community for a month? Is this not a manslaughter charge? Do they bail for manslaughter? Obviously they do

I'm sorry but shih Tzus are renowned for their calm and kind nature. I'm not saying that there are no rogue shih Tzus in the world but putting them even in the same aggressive bracket as a fucking XL bully is insane. INSANE.