How common do you think involuntary childlessness is?

[Bumpitybumper]

I was listening to a podcast about the falling birth rate and began to think of friends and family members that haven't had children. I would honestly say that the majority had the desire to have children at some point but ended up without children either due to medical or fertility issues or more commonly life circumstances.

For the women I know, it was almost as if they suddenly ran out of time and found they had fertility issues when they decided they were ready for babies (usually mid/late 30s) or they either didn't have a partner or their partner didn't want children. I know lots of people actively choose to not have children but I would say this is uncommon amongst the people I know. I'm therefore wondering if my circle is unusual or is unintended childlessness a much bigger thing than we are led to believe?

But the thing that we miss is that women != babies. To make a baby you need a man and a woman unless using medical intervention. The only person we have under our control is ourself. Society/men have no desire to change the status quo. There will always be people willing to have babies in terrible conditions just to have a baby and there will be people forced into have children. It is nuanced but a big part of the falling birth rates is that we have choices. Some choices are difficult though. Most women could find a person to sleep with and fall pregnant but they are looking for more than that as I agree they should. I think that is for the best and it doesn't write off the sadness for those who are upset about it.

While we can acknowledge this is sad that people who wanted children and couldn't make the right circumstances to have them, there is still a full wonderful life to be had.

It's not the women you need to be talking to, it's the men.

And what would you tell these men that would realistically make a difference?

Probably nothing. They don’t want to settle down and they can’t be forced to. But at least it would mean retiring the tired old trope that these babies aren’t being born because it’s the career hungry women that don’t want them.

It hasn’t occurred to you that

‘more choosy over partners’ usually means seeing they are / going to be a poor partner and father and getting out before they are left doing all the child rearing and housework (best case) to being abused (worst)

as I said up thread a friend in her early 30s just broke up with her boyfriend after living together for 18 months as he did no domestic work at all and has not budged on that despite repeated discussions

20 years ago social pressure would have probably meant shed have stayed and had kids with him.

i hope she meets a better man, but it’s far from guaranteed.

@Bumpitybumper

i agree it’s a feminist issue.

it applies to our love sex and romantic lives too.

as a woman I had far less choice available to me than male peers with similar attributes of talent and attractiveness.

and the timetable for children with a decent partner is as out of my hands

Does feminism need to turn its attention to educating men on what they miss out on by avoiding family life? And what it takes to build a good one?

or do we need a positive men’s movement that does that

I agree with many of the points mentioned earlier, but I have a few more to add. Sorry if this has already been mentioned.

Vanity:
I've known girls who refuse to date good men solely because they don't have fashionable clothing or a hairstyle that they consider attractive. In one notable case, a friend with a roman nose rejected a smart and good looking guy also with a roman nose because she didn't want her future children to have that feature (as if that's how it works). Yes she was bullied in school, but she was so fixated on image that she disregarded a potential life partner based on something as trivial as their nose. A guy I know disclosed, albeit drunk, that he finds women with big hands repulsive, thus wouldn't date the big handed woman who was otherwise hot and interested in him. I'm not sure there weren't other reasons, but that's the reason he gave. I just wonder how much social media contributes to such shallow sentiments, considering the obsession with appearances nowadays. Vanity = both physical appearance and to some extent too picky with regards to social status.

Indecisiveness:
This is a common issue that many of my friends struggle with - not being able to make a decision about whether or not to have children. Yhe pros and cons seem to balance each other out, leading to a constant swing between "I really, reallly want to have a babyyy" and "The world is fucked up/I enjoy luxury and vacations, so why bother?.... but wait, I really, reallly want to have a babyyy, but hang on..." rinse and repeat as the years go by.

I think you have mistaken me, I see this as a great thing that women have less social pressure and so are settling less.

Yikes I think this shows a distinct lack of empathy and understanding of evolution. Why would your friend who was bullied for a feature want to pass it on? She clearly views it negatively whether it is or not. Also if you are not attracted to someone I don't think it matters how great they are. Having a child is about passing genes on.

For the indecisiveness, it could be interpreted as people actually thinking and not just doing what they would have done by default in times past.

I mean this Roman nose thing sounds like a red herring. She didn't fancy him, simple as that. If you are attracted to someone you don't refer to a checklist of pre-approved facial features. We've all sometimes found ourselves mad about a bloke who we wouldn't have described as our type. How old are these friends - they sound quite young and at arm's length from life (though the extended adolescence of young adults today is doubtless a factor).

I am in London and almost all of my friends are here, often from other countries and most of them I know through a physical and time-consuming hobby (which is hard to balance with being a parent - I've just returned to it after 6 years after having 2 dcs, almost all other women I've known who were doing it before having dc have stopped). I'd say most of them have made a conscious choice not to have dcs, or have been ambivalent but not desperate to have them, and it's never felt like the right circumstances to have them. Quite a few are in same sex relationships so it would need more planning to make it happen.

There isn't the social pressure in my circle to get married and have dcs - people are more impressed by interesting careers, travel, a good social life. Almost all of them are in relationships and good jobs so that has not been the issue . I don't know many people who have actually had medical fertility issues - of those who have dcs, most of them were unplanned.

She found him attractive and has said so. She even called him a backup plan.
Desiring specific traits for your children is understandable, but rejecting someone based on a single feature when you think they're good looking is a bit naive when you yourself carry the trait is all i mean. Especially when there are no guarantees. Imagine not wanting your daughter to have big hands and seeking out a partner with small hands, only to discover that you yourself carry the recessive gene for big hands. What will you do then? Get a divorce and find tiny hand wife #2?

I agree we must find our partner attractive, but seeking a prefect partner seems to be all the rage with my peers.

Everyone mentioned in early to mid-late 20s.

Women being picky is a tiny tiny drop in the ocean compared to the fact that we are going through a period of incredible social change in relation to recognising red flags early on in relationships. I VASTLY prefer the idea of a society where women are over cautious about who they procreate with and miss the boat, than women compromising endlessly and their children being the ones to suffer for having a shit father.

I think the issues with men are complex and very difficult to work through.

There is a pretty strong school of thought that believes that many men (not all!) have less of a biological imperative to have babies. They don't get 'broody' in the same way and don't seem to have quite the same drive as many women. They want sex but not necessarily the babies. There is also the fact that most men can have babies biologically later than women, so even those that do want babies are not working within the same fertility window as their female counterparts. If a man and a woman in their 30s meet, fall in love and both want children, the woman can be scuppered by the fact that the man saying he isn't ready yet. This has happend to two of my friends and quite frankly whilst the man could afford to wait, the women simply couldn't! This isn't a question of education as men aren't necessarily wrong to want children less than women or to want them later. The obvious issue though is that there is a biological mismatch between men and women that is now becoming more evident as we have broken the link between sex and babies and societal pressure for people to settle down has reduced.

@LilyThePineappleFritterQueen

We can't expect people to settle for someone they're not truly attracted to just for the sake of addressing declining birth rates.
If your friend truly found him attractive, she wouldn't have hesitated. And the same goes for your male friend; believe it or not he too is entitled to his own preferences and what he finds unattractive. They don't owe anyone an explanation.

Striking a balance between addressing declining birth rates and promoting healthy solutions requires thoughtful consideration but attentimptn to override one's natural instincts is dangerously misguided and an absolute distaster waiting to happen!! And I say this as someone deeply concerned about the potential loneliness, despair and regret individuals, particularly women, may well experience due to involuntary childlessness

@Bumpitybumper

I agree with this, although most studies show that men on average do very well and better than being single on almost all metrics out of solid stable marriages, with or without children. So maybe they don't have the biological wiring in the same way, but the sensible decision, on average, is to find a stable relationship and couple up if you are a bloke.

I think loads of men realise they are better off in a relationship. This is why when men are unhappy in a relationship they are much more likely to leave to be with another woman than be on their own. Women seem much more willing to leave before they have met another partner.

I also don't necessarily see men resisting relationships but they are not committing to relationships in the same way they would in the past through marriage and having children. In fact quite a few long term relationships I know of crumbled when the woman started to pressure the man for marriage and babies.

I waited until my mid 30s to start trying for financial reasons - I wanted us to own our own place because renting with kids and trying to pass affordability tests for a mortgage while also paying out childcare looked really difficult and I thought, why not wait until I'm the same age my mum was when she had me. Then DH got cancer. We've still got some options (in a freezer) but I'll be 38 soon and the odds are not great.

People are finding it takes longer and longer to save up for a mortgage now, private renting is fucking awful, and if you have kids young and then apply for social housing you're treated as though you've personally filched a £20 note from the wallet of every higher rate taxpayer in a 50 mile radius. It really shouldn't surprise anyone that women are leaving it later. This suggestion we're just frivolously focusing on our silly little "careers" instead of prioritising what really matters really winds me up.

Well said. I agree

If I had the chance to ' Do life over ' is have thrown caution to the wind and had kids in my early twenties. We're told its wrong and to get all of the essentials in place first - but the reality is, there is never a perfect time and life is a minefield of obstacles. Throw unsuitable partners, ill health, aging parents into the mix and you may find you've missed your opportunity and you become a childless statistic. Whereas the women I kniw, who had kids at 17,18,19 and were effectively single mums, are doing fantastically now with great careers, houses of their own, good marriages ... Yet they were scorned and looked down on at the time and told " you've ruined your life, " . Far from it; they had the last laugh!

I would hate to see us pushing women into having kids in their twenties. I do absolutely believe that that's a time when young women should ideally be enjoying their youth, their independence and their freedom, and I believe that many women are much better parents for having had that time for themselves. I definitely matured a lot during my twenties, and had lots of exciting opportunities that meant I didn't mind at all having to make sacrifices for my dc. Not judging anyone else, but I know I would have been a terrible parent in my twenties!

Very few women are at risk of age-related fertility problems in their early thirties, so there is no need to tell them to rush things. Yes, fertility does start to decline from mid-thirties onwards, but most women are acutely aware of that anyway, so if they're leaving it until then, they presumably have their own reasons for that.

I'm childless not by choice/by circumstance. Lot's of chronic health issues means it's never been an option for me, just wouldn't be well enough to care for a child. Never tried to conceive so not sure whether it would have been possible for me.

I would advise my own dd to wait. I was a self absorbed bag of insecurities in my twenties. I'd have been an absolutely terrible parent!

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

I don't think it's about pushing women in their twenties into having kids early, but rather stopping with the false rhetoric that somehow you've ruined your life for choosing or considering that option. Young mothers are still young enough to make something of their lives! Not everyone follows the same trajectory in life and sometimes, " doing things the right way" leads to heartbreak and missing out as life can often get more complicated with age.

Hmm... Do you think you would have been, if you'd been a mother? Obviously it's not to say that young women should have a baby as a self-development tool and hope for the best, but don't we all grow up when we need to? It can be the making of someone. You have far less time to be self-absorbed and insecure when you have responsibilities. Hard to predict, I suppose, who would thrive with that pressure and purpose, versus those who would be better off waiting.