How common do you think involuntary childlessness is?

[Bumpitybumper]

I was listening to a podcast about the falling birth rate and began to think of friends and family members that haven't had children. I would honestly say that the majority had the desire to have children at some point but ended up without children either due to medical or fertility issues or more commonly life circumstances.

For the women I know, it was almost as if they suddenly ran out of time and found they had fertility issues when they decided they were ready for babies (usually mid/late 30s) or they either didn't have a partner or their partner didn't want children. I know lots of people actively choose to not have children but I would say this is uncommon amongst the people I know. I'm therefore wondering if my circle is unusual or is unintended childlessness a much bigger thing than we are led to believe?

Also the falling birth rate isn't really to do with the number of women having children (which hasn't changed much). Its the number of children each woman has.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/conceptionandfertilityrates/bulletins/childbearingforwomenbornindifferentyearsenglandandwales/2020

• Of women aged 45 years and born in 1975 who had completed their childbearing years in 2020, 18% were childless, with 17% having only one child, both of which are increases compared with their mothers' generation (both 13%).

....

While average family size has decreased, two children families remain the most common family size across both generations, with 37% of women born in 1975 and 44% of those born in 1949 having two children.

For those born in 1975, 27% had three or more children and 17% had only one child, compared with 30% and 13% respectively, for their mothers' generation.

So it's 5% increase in women not having any children and 4% increase in one child but only 3% reduction in 3 or more kids category and most of the drop coming from women generation before having two kids.

I am surprised by that - though maybe 3+ kids parents rich or poor enough not to feel impact so much or career impacts happened by then.

@Bumpitybumper Yes! It annoys me when people talk as if all women are just flippantly out partying all through their twenties only to come crashing down and experience the consequences of their grasshopper ways when older. (Often with a certain "and serves them right too "undertone). Its another version of the "young people can't afford houses because they spent all their money on avocadoes" meme. Most of the women I know worked really hard in their twenties and made conscious rational decisions to give themselves (and children) a secure future.

Also this is partly why I think women do slightly better in their twenties than men career/earnings wise. Not that the young men are lazy. But they aren't driven by an awareness they will need to take time out later if they want children.

Ouch. This is an emotive subject but I agree, one that does need talking about. I hate being asked why I didn't have children - how do you explain that you never met anyone suitable to have one with, without being deemed as defective or weird in some way?. For lots of women it's a case of luck in as far as, they've been lucky to follow the natural trajectory in life without mental health/ abuse/personak/ circumstantial problems getting in the way and mucking up the natural order of things. I have noticed though that there are more women in their 40s that have experienced involuntary childlessness - in one workplace there were five of us in this position and similar age bracket. From school days, again there are at least 3 of my old friends who it didn't work out for either. All I would ask, for those of you who have kids, please handle the subject with sensitivity and please don't push for answers if we're reluctant to freely talk about it. It's a brutal topic and I've lost count of the times I've walked away from gatherings with a lump in my throat, trying to hold back the tears until I get home. It's the sense of shame on top of the natural longing for something that will never happen that's so tough to deal with.

Thank you for your post and advice about talking to friends and family in a similar situation. The absolute last thing I would want to do is upset them.

As a woman in my mid 50s I completely agree we have it backwards. I had my DDs in my 30s but physically I'd have been better off having them in my 20s. I went back to grad school and created a new career for myself and now that childcare is over and because Im older and more experienced, I'm far more competent in my job. However, I wish I hadn't needed to scramble so much when they were little trying to balance children and keep a viable career. Both suffered.

If we can tackle agism and the misogyny behind agism, we will see far more women like me in their late 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s rocking their jobs. Government policy is needed to flip this: give the financial incentives and support for 20something women to have their babies younger (healthier moms and healthier babies) and focus on discrimination of older female adults.

I recently had my first in my late 20s, as did one of my friends. We’re both medics and were both very keen to TTC relatively young to minimise the risk of fertility issues, particularly as we each want 2-3 children and had been very exposed to the realities of infertility and fertility treatment through our studies and work. Other friends were really surprised and some genuinely acted like we were having a teenage pregnancy! IMO of couples I know, the women are all more than aware of their future fertility, although I think some are perhaps overly comforted by the prospect of egg freezing and fertility checks. A lot of the men seem totally oblivious, although I’m not sure if this is an act to their partners or not! They want to wait until their mid/late 30s and then expect to have 3 children easily. Everything is very planned in their minds. Their wives are secretly worried and would like to try much earlier. It is so sad and so difficult nowadays. I certainly can’t pretend that pregnancy and motherhood haven’t been seriously difficult career and finance wise…

It's a lot easier, and less risky, to get pregnant at 20, or even 30.

But we often wait till were established in our career to get pregnant... Which means at least 30.

And women waste years on feckless (?) men who suddenly decide when they're 35, that actually, they don't want kids. So the woman then scrambles around for a suitable father.

The ex boyfriend then finds a 20 odd year old to marry.

We see it chapter and verse on here, all the time.

I wonder this too. Sometimes it seems members of the cfbc brigade protest too much.

I don't think it's lack of knowledge of fertility.

A lot of the women I went to school with always assumed they would be in a steady relationship by their late twenties or early thirties at the latest, settled down, in their own homes, amd the only issue would be finding a nanny or other childcare.

They never expected the men they dates to be so averse to commitment or so unwilling to become fathers, with all the work and expense that that involves.

They are mostly professional women - doctors, dentists, solicitors, managers, CPAs, etc. If they had been able to take time out of their career or professional qualification tracks for maternity leave, or willing to sacrifice the career trajectories they could have had to juggle parenthood (actually, let's not mince words here, it's motherhood I mean) with the demands of their careers, they would have done so, and sadly their potential husbands or partners would have been happy to see them do that.

Women of my generation (late 50s) were encouraged to aim for the best career they could aspire to, but nobody told the men of our era that they needed to support us in our careers and as parents, and that their home lives would not resemble their fathers' home lives. The men of my class in school who are currently enjoying professional careers are married to women who chose traditional women's careers that could be combined with doing the vast majority of the housework and care of the children.

It's not uncommon. I think this is the case with an old school friend - she seemed quite depressed in the last year and I think it's because we've got to an age (mid 40s) where if you wanted kids, you now know it's never going to happen.

I would always advise my kids to plan ahead if they want children (NB, I don't actually have any strong desire that my kids ought to have children, not my choice and not in my power to make it happen). Not as in 'Plan everything around having kids!' but it's not a thing to 'start thinking about' when you're 30, as I've heard some people say. You need to at least be considering how you might make having kids work - though that said, for my kids' generation, I have no idea how the economics will stack up, and we're pretty well off. While I won't ever pressure my kids into having kids, I do want them to know that if the problem is money they should tell us and we'll try to help.

Yes to this.

I see it in my own DDs' choices.

I think it's hard to know, and there's a grey line between choosing to stay child free, and it just happening.
People also often will say "oh I'm so pleased"/"never wanted them"/"much happier without"/"hate children". When the real term is that they desperately wanted and threw everything at it, and it didn't happen. That's their choice not to share with others.

I know a couple of people who are open about the fact they put their career first, assuming that they'd have a baby when they wanted, left it to late 30s/early 40s and it didn't happen. Both of them are very open, but they generally describe it as they chose not to have children. I know in both cases that they did try, due to conversations that I have had at the time, and I know at the time they were devastated. You wouldn't know that unless you were there at the time.

One of dm's best friends was very vocal about her and dh not wanting children. She even had her tubes tied in her early 20s. I don't think they'd do that nowadays, tbf, but she did. She's now approaching her 80s and recently she admitted to dm that they had changed their mind and she had an operation to reverse the tube tying when she was in her 30s. But it didn't happen, something she's only now admitting she was/is upset about.

Now are those cases voluntary, or involuntary? In each case they made choices that made it much less likely they would have a child.

I only know of one couple who said they wanted to be child free. That's because one of them has inherited a very serious genetical illness. They are having the dreadful symptoms of it, and likely will die in the next 10 years, before they hit 50. Any child they have would have a 50/50 chance of inheriting it. Having watched her dad die from it, they made that decision.

Other than that, I know several child free couples who are unlikely to have children now due to age. I have never discussed it with them, and I would never unless they brought it up. So I think it's very difficult to know, nor is it my business.

I know 5 childless women very well. Of those only one chose not to have children. The remaining four had fertility issues. Only one sought medical help. If that is replicated throughout society it would indicate that a fair number of childless women with fertility issues fly under the statistical radar. I personally had 13 years of infertility followed by a spontaneous pregnancy aged 37. I had medical investigations (inconclusive) but declined IVF. Not sure how i would have been categorised.

YYY to this.

Some of the women I went to school with had a baby or two immediately after leaving school while working or unemployed. A good few of them have since managed to go to university and have careers in their chosen areas. One finished her PhD the week before her second grandchild was born.

None of this was planned, and the fathers of the babies they had are long out of the picture, bar one. But it's more than ironic that some of the young women who were given to believe they were doing it all wrong ended up having it all.

I'm amazed the childless by choice percentage is so low - I would have thought it would be a lot higher. But maybe it'll increase - there certainly seems be more people leaning towards being childfree.

I know 8 women my age ( off the top of my head) late 40s/ early 50s) who are childless.
I know 2 of them definitely wanted children but they didn't
meet the right person at right time so it never worked out.
SIL and her partner are gay and considered IVF about 20 years ago but didn't go through with it.
The others I'm not sure about.
It's a personal question to ask a friend at work unless they volunteer the information.
Some are gay which makes it more complicated, some may be intentionally childless, others may have wanted DC but it just didn't happen.
I think your right that its not often spoken about.
Fertility treatment is more widely available and frequently spoken of so I think it's now often assumed you can have a baby if you want one.
Whereas for my parents generation that wasn't the case , it was accepted that it wasnt possible for every woman to have a child.

Most of the women I know it’s because they never met someone (we do have a family member who had a baby alone at 49, then met someone).
I have a few who just don’t want children at all.

I worked with someone who was unsure about having kids in her 30s, I think her husband pushed her towards not having them though. I think she would have liked a child, she became slightly obsessed about her nieces and even bought a much bigger house to accommodate them even though they live over 300 miles away and rarely visit. She then became very religious in her 40s out of nowhere, I suspect trying to fill a hole.

That is heartbreaking 💔

It's quite a private matter, if people know you have fertility issues they start being nosey or telling you their friends distant relation had a miracle baby etc. Far better to keep it quiet and just make out you like your freedom and decent holidays. So there may be more involuntary childless people than you realise.

I am in a friendship group of 4, we met well over decade ago, all 4 of us childfree. Aged between late teens/late twenties when we met.

I would say 3 of us are childfree by choice- the two that are now too old to have a decent chance of conceiving are happy with this. One is married and happily childfree, the other is long term single and has never chased a man or a family.

Two of us are still in our thirties, I am the youngest I have the most time but am happily married and childfree though myself and my husband are open to the fact one of us may change our mind as we head towards 40. Both of us would flex on TTC if the other person had a strong desire but agree that we wouldn’t want more than 1 and at the moment the status quo suits us.

The final friend is late 30s and I think is sad that she’s childfree and assumed she’d be married with kids by now. Unfortunately she spent a long time in an abusive relationship and a long time recovering and is finding dating in her late 30s tough. We all really hope it happens for her though and I think she finds comfort in spending time with those of us who are childfree by choice and making the most of it.

I spent a long time on the fence and having older friends who had already made the choice not to and are happy with the outcome was a significant factor in me being able to put to bed the “FOMO”.

I know a lot of women in this positions didnt find the right person, didn’t want to go it alone, health or fertility issues got in the way, found partner too late. At least 10 women in my circle.

I know a few. It's men that are putting it off, not women. If the birthrate is to be increased, men are who parenthood should be promoted to.

I think the problem is that this messaging is at odds with “sort your education and career first”.

From about 13-20 I would’ve swore up and down I wanted kids one day. I’m now 34, really not that bothered (erring on not wanting children) but have been having unprotected sex with my husband for 3 years, and just one miscarriage in that time.

I definitely don’t want kids enough to investigate my fertility so I’ll probably remain childless and I’m totally okay with that.

I’d probably say I am childless by circumstance though. But not in a bad way at all, just I’m not actively trying to prevent children by choice, but I’m equally happy to never have children. Part of me sort of wishes I’d already done it though, and who knows what would’ve happened if I tried earlier in my career.

I suppose the same way that I live in England by circumstance rather than by choice - neither a bad thing nor a good thing. Just a thing.

I suspect that men are increasingly unwilling to commit to having children because they are aware that women (& society?) now expect them to step up & do a fair share?

I think there are definitely not enough good men willing to be fathers to go round, this is especially true if women want a partner a similar age to them. Lots of men in their 20s and 30s have Peter Pan syndrome and think that they've got forever to grow up. I guess this is because male fertility endures generally longer than females fertility. These men can be complete time wasters for women and I have seen this happen to a few of my friends who lost quite a few fertile years to these men that were never going to realistically want children within the timeframe that the women needed.