How common do you think involuntary childlessness is?

[Bumpitybumper]

I was listening to a podcast about the falling birth rate and began to think of friends and family members that haven't had children. I would honestly say that the majority had the desire to have children at some point but ended up without children either due to medical or fertility issues or more commonly life circumstances.

For the women I know, it was almost as if they suddenly ran out of time and found they had fertility issues when they decided they were ready for babies (usually mid/late 30s) or they either didn't have a partner or their partner didn't want children. I know lots of people actively choose to not have children but I would say this is uncommon amongst the people I know. I'm therefore wondering if my circle is unusual or is unintended childlessness a much bigger thing than we are led to believe?

Eh? You think articles about women who have children in their 40s (I don't know what news you're reading... I definitely don't see this in the broadsheets) are a woke conspiracy to trick young women into not having babies as part of a woke conspiracy against stay at home parents?

That is a deeply weird and paranoid worldview.

Telling people who can't afford to raise children that they should have children they can't afford isn't massively helpful to be honest.

Are you unintended childless OP? How does it impact you and how do you feel about it? What would have helped in your circumstances?

Out of a friendship group of 12 from school (now in our 40s!) only one is childless - she desperately wanted kids but has never met anyone to have them with. 5 of us are OAD for various medical and social reasons, the rest have 2. No one has more than 2

The article suggested 10% medical, 10% intentional and the other 80%(!!) was 'circumstances'. Of the people I know, many would fall into the latter category for different, often quite complex reasons. Relationship breakdowns, financial reasons, being with someone that already has kids and doesn't want anymore etc....

@Bumpitybumper I'm 63. As long ago as the early 80s women in my circle knew that fertility tailed off after 30. We were making decisions about our financial stability, our professional standing and having babies 40 years ago.

Some women never met the right man, some decided not to, some wanted to but couldn't due to infertility and/or deciding IVF wasn't for them or didn't work.

I know two or three couples who never really recovered emotionally from being unable to have children or who had recurrent losses. I may know more who have never discussed it.

I am surprised this is news to you.

The thing is, it's not one moment that you step over a line and that's it, it's too late. It's a whole long series of decisions you make, and decisions you shelve, isn't it? There's a massive spectrum, in terms of what different people are willing to do or not do, in order to have a child. There's nothing wrong with that - but it makes it very difficult to make generalisations about 'involuntary childlessness'.

No, I have two children. Sorry, should have mentioned that in my original post

This is true for sure. BUT it doesn't change the fact that even for those who aren't focussed on the fun bit at least, most people in their 20s don't have the job or housing security to be able to raise a child in a stable environment.

I think the surprise at people younger than 30 having babies is maybe a bit of jealousy (?) - I have a few friends who had babies in their 20s and both were lucky enough to come from very affluent backgrounds and also have partners who earned a lot, so they had houses etc at a young age and felt insulated enough they could take mat leave at a less senior level of their career and know even if they lost their jobs they'd be ok / could feed the kids.

Definitely not the case for me in my 20s where I lived paycheck to paycheck like most of my mates.

I know quite a few childless older women. Two had recurring miscarriages and did not want to pursue ivf. One had a husband with a hereditary illness. One became a stepparent later in life and was happy not to have her own children. One had unexplained infertility having met her partner later in life (under 40.) I think many women would not talk about the actual reason and I only know their situations as I have known them all for many years.

I think the "your biological clock is ticking" narrative has always been pervasive and very loud. The "don't pressure women" narrative is in response to that, and while well-intentioned, could mislead naive women, yes.

I find this a wider thing in general - eg "XYZ (societal markers not related to this topic) are not important". Obviously, the only reason they say such things is because XYZ IS universally seen as important. People who don't realise that (including me) are in for a rude shock when they grow up and look at everyone around them! A balanced narrative, acknowledging the truth but also softening the pressure, would be better.

I have one child, I was unable to have more (my eggs and womb both stopped working at age 34).

I know a lot of mums theough DD’s school. All have been physically unable to have as many children as they wanted, except the mum who had her first child at 28, she’s had 4 children no problem. I also have two friends who desperately wanted children but are single and can’t afford IVF + single motherhood. So I would say it is a hugely common issue yes.

It isn’t talked about by the women much because the grief is deep and never goes away and it is too late for us, so we don’t wanna talk about it. Occasionally a female celebrity (eg Kirstie Allsop) mentions that women have been bullied into having children too late and suffer the grief of infertility as a result, and the celebrity usually gets a load of abuse.

It isn’t talked about by the men because most of them prefer small (or no) families and they simply don’t grieve infertility in the same way.

It isn’t talked about by the government because they much prefer women to be in work paying taxes than taking maternity leave.

But within the next couple of decades people are going to start to notice the insane increase in the number of children with adhd and autism, make the connection with maternal age, and blame women for ‘choosing to have children too late’ sigh.

I think it is worrying that the population is declining and at the rate we are going there won't be enough workers to support the elderly population in the not so distant future. Naturally, the government are doing nothing about this now, when it needs to be done, they will wait until we are in the neck deep in the sticky situation.

The government should probably be

Making having a family an attractive option
Housing a family possible on minimum wage
Feeding a family possible on minimum wage
Creating a safe country to bring children into
Creating a culture where people can meet partners
Provide good quality maternity services
Provide good well funded childcare and education

It isn’t talked about by the men because most of them prefer small (or no) families and they simply don’t grieve infertility in the same way.

I don't think that is true. I don't think all women even grieve infertility the same way. I think for men there is a cultural pressure not to say you wanted children and didn't have them.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/10/we-need-to-talk-about-the-benefits-of-being-an-older-mother-and-to-stop-making-women-feel-guilty-for-it

Such articles are pretty common.

Obviously runs contrary to biological fact. But I also think it IS a somewhat necessary counter-narrative to the "a young woman's place is as a mother" crowd (that also runs contrary to the biological fact that young women have brains in addition to wombs/vaginas).

I think a more balanced narrative would be good. Actually on the whole, all these different camps don't really matter... Things like equal paternity leave and other policies are the real factors.

I don't think we should be pushing young women into having kids with the first willing man for fear of ending up childless!!

Education about fertility changes as you age, yes. But honestly if you're 25 and deciding to postpone the opportunity to have kids now until you're 40, the impetus is on you to do research. If you get to 40 and never found the right man, what can you do? Women can choose to go it alone, but many wouldn't want to or can't afford to

2 people in my friendship group who haven't had kids: 1 started trying v. early thirties, nothing happened, eventually went to the doctors and was then told she was likely completely infertile. Devastating because she always wanted children and feels like she did everything "right" working hard at school/working at her career and this is the one thing she actually wants. BUT her issue isn't age related at all. If she had TTC at 21 she would have run into the same problems (though maybe had more time to process/think about IVF/save for IVF/come to terms with her situation.) But its not easy news at any age.

My other friend likes children but never felt the urge to have them. She's late thirties now and still hasn't felt her clock ticking. She reckons if her biological clock was going to go of it would have by now.

Most of my other friends had their first children within a short space of time to each other (all mid 30s). The typical pattern went work hard at career in twenties>get married>have baby around the age of 35ish.

So based on that tiny 50% of fertility is voluntary. 50%involuntary but not necessarily age related

Honestly I think it's too late for all this. Doing all the sensible things you suggest would cost so much and there's no money left. And it would take decades to build up the infrastructure to support.

Because also housing is the absolute key thing. People don't tend to want babies if they are in insecure housing or house shares. So you'd need to basically burst the housing bubble to make buying a place affordable (which would make any government the enemy of the homeowners who would be in negative equity) OR put in decent rent controls like they have in Europe (even the most leftwing Labour opposition would consider this too far as all the landlords would hate them and again, would impact property prices as if people could rent safely few would want to buy) OR build decent social housing which again no one wants to do.

It's a nightmare.

There is also the ethical consideration of whether we should be encouraging more children when the planet can't support those we have but that's another matter.

DEPRESSING!

I have a large group of friends who really never wanted children. They were certain all their lives that they didn't want them. They're now in their 40s/early 50s and very happy with their choices. No doubts at all.
I also know several women who desperately wanted children and couldn't have them - mostly because they didn't meet the right person at the right time. I only know of one case where they couldn't have them because of infertility.

I had my children much younger than most of my friends, but am now a single mother and trying to get my career back on track now I'm older. I don't regret anything but I am less financially well of than my friends who built their career most of whom had no issues conceiving in their thirties.

One thing I do think is that we should make it easier for people to start new careers (not just jobs) and work on career advancement when they are older (30s, 40s, 50s etc). Then there would be less pressure on women to front-load their careers in their twenties.

Lots of my friends were completely aware that they wanted a good job/financial security and wanted children. They worked really hard in their twenties to get as far along in their careers as they could so that when they did have children they could step back for a few years and still be in a reasonably good place (going part time from a high salary is easier than going to part time on a low salary and most "good career" workplaces offer better options for parents than "jobs"). Its a rational decision that worked for most of them.

I can only think of one person who didn’t meet a partner and time was running out at 40 so she went it alone with a donor.

I agree that we shouldn't be pushing young women to have kids with the first willing man they meet but equally we should be cautioning women about leaving it too late and being faced with the choice of having a baby on their own or with any willing partner they can find at that time.

Women have potentially a few decades to meet a suitable partner so ideally they should use this time productively so there is no panic at the end. The messaging for young women is to enjoy themselves and not get bogged down by kids and a partner too early. I'm not sure this is conducive with tackling unintended childlessness.

Also the falling birth rate isn't really to do with the number of women having children (which hasn't changed much). Its the number of children each woman has. Infertility matters on an individual level and deserves attention for that reason. But it isn't a major demographic problem.

I got married at 22 straight out of university. DH was 25. Didnt use artificial contraception from the get go. Never been pregnant. Wasn't actively trying for most of that time but thought that fate would decide for me. No condoms or pills or anything. In the early years of my marriage, we were having sex daily but somehow i didn't get pregnant.

Fate didn't decide for me and we worked on our careers and bought a flat in London etc. Decided to actively ttc last year but still nothing. I am 31. I may be involuntarily childless despite marrying at 22 and not really doing anything on my part to inhibit my fertility.

@anothernamitynamenamechange
One thing I do think is that we should make it easier for people to start new careers (not just jobs) and work on career advancement when they are older (30s, 40s, 50s etc). Then there would be less pressure on women to front-load their careers in their twenties
I really agree with this. It's always struck me as odd that women are expected to build a career in their most fertile decades forcing them to prioritise one or the other. If you don't have a decent career by 40 then it's very hard to build one and if you don't have a baby by 40 then you can run into fertility issues. Just seems madness when we have many more decades that we could use productively.

There isn't as much pressure to even be in a relationship anymore. I know loads of people who are in 'situationships' and have been in these kinds of relationships since their twenties and are in their 30's. My parents generation (65) all seem to have met their husband/wives in their early twenties. Now there's so much choice when dating it's a bit overwhelming and nobody wants to put all of their eggs in one basket so you end up dating for years. Men and women don't seem as bothered about serious commitment anymore