Patriotism: are you patriotic and how far would you take it?

[rickyrickygrimes]

There’s a big article in the Times today, bemoaning the lack of patriotism in young people today and linking it to their reluctance to join the armed forces or do national service. Are you / your children patriotic?

How does patriotism work for people who live somewhere other than where they were born? We’re in this situation. All British but we’ve been living in France for nearly 20 years. My youngest will soon get French nationality, so he will have dual citizenship. My oldest is also British, he was born in NZ so has New Zealand nationality - and he will likely take French citizenship when he turns 18. Which of those three countries should he fight for?

A young person in the article when asked about national service said “it seems a little unfair to give up your first two years of adulthood providing for a country you may feel adequately represent you.’ . It made me wonder if ’representation’ is what is required for people to feel patriotic- and what does it mean? How does patriotism fit in a multicultural society?

No, I’m no longer patriotic. And no longer have any care for anyone royal since the queen died.

I've never been particularly patriotic, and would like the monarchy abolished.

Do you think a royal family is necessary for patriotism? France hasn’t had one for a long time: still plenty patriotic French people.

I’m Welsh. I have lived in England for past 10yrs.

I find Wales more patriotic than England… no idea why it is like this.

I think in my mind I lump patriotism and the royal family together 😂

I am not patriotic and I think national pride is an absolute ridiculous notion, designed to cause division and provide fodder for war. Why would I be proud of where I was born and raised? I had no choice in it. It is just chance and circumstance. Why would I feel patriotic about a country that tolerates low level corruption and systematic inequality? I know there are worse places in the world, but we could be so much better. I love my fellow citizens, but I feel no pride in my country.

@oOmoonhaOo i didn’t mention it in my OP because our family nationality situation is already complicated… but DH and I are Scottish which is increasingly patriotic / nationalistic.

I’m not patriotic at all. I used to be I think.

My children have received really quite shit educations (SN, covid). Family members have had consistently shit treatment from the NHS. The political system is full of self serving egotistical millionaires who don’t give a crap about us ordinary people, using lies and fear to manipulate us. Public services are a mess. The public sector barely manages to serve the country (councils, policing etc).

It’s a shit show, and getting worse.

I like the way the French pull together when they need to, but in the UK we don’t do that. I wish we did sometimes!

I used to be patriotic and feel proud of the UK, but not anymore. With Brexit, Iraq and our place in the whole Palestine/Israel mess, I am thoroughly ashamed of this country.

I used to feel proud of England and the UK/GB, and feel a strong affection for us as a people. My "identity" is European but I always liked the qualities that feel especially British to me.

But ... since the turn of the millennium, and increasingly since about 2010, I perceive those qualities diminishing. I honestly like a lot less about my compatriots now. Additionally, things like the NHS and our imperfect but not-too-bad social systems are falling apart with little national will to rebuild them, and we've had a blatantly incompetent and corrupt government for over a decade.

We're no longer the people I valued so highly. I'm extremely sad about this.

@FoFanta I don’t disagree with you. I left the UK a long time ago, and have lived in many places, so I can’t say i feel very patriotic about that little bit of Earth that I happened to be born on. But at the same time, there’s definitely a lot of nostalgia and a love for the scenery / landscape / history / people. I don’t think that’s patriotism (though I do get a bit lairy and Scottish after a few beers).

I think part of the issue is, you think England flag and what pops into mind is football hooligans and the EDL. Neither I want to be associated with.

I like being English, but I'm not sure I am proud to be English. I mean, half of us (not me) voted for Brexit so we're clearly not very bright.

@2024GarlicCloves @TaxiVan @TinyYellow

do you think a strongman leader could drum up support for a more ‘patriotic’ turn in politics? I watched a little cartoon recently, scripted my Margaret Atwood on the subject of democracy. One of the points she made was that when the big institutions crumble and people get dedicated and disappointed, they can become vulnerable to those dictators in waiting who claim that they can fix it. It really worries me to see the NHS and education in such trouble in the UK - these are exactly the institutions that she’s talking about.

you are right about the French: if they were subjected to anything like the levels of service Claudette normal in the NHS these days, Westminster would be barricaded and on fire. And everyone would be behind them. Attal (PM) is already caving to the farmers - and all they did was spray cow shit on a Prefecture (kind of a regional town hall)!

Patriotic about Brexit Britain?

The only feeling l have is shame.

My teens are not at all patriotic. I think that they feel that the current government (they can't really remember a time under Labour) doesn't represent their views on life. They haven't had the greatest time growing up in covid and austerity and they don't like seeing how the government treat vulnerable people. They are pro immigration, Europe, NHS, welfare state etc. They are community minded but are pascifists. I don't know that they would necessarily emigrate elsewhere but they would not be volunteering to fight.

On health grounds they are likely to be bottom of the conscription list anyway. They certainly would be currently rejected if they tried to sign up. We knew this from a young age so have never encouraged an interest in the military. I am sure though that they would be useful in a more supportive role because they would want to reduce suffering and help people.

I was born in England but live in Scotland one of things I notice is that Scots are definitely more patriotic they are proud to be Scottish (but credit to them over whelming voted against Brexit).
When I first moved here I was surprised that Scottish food products/brands were very clearly labelled in supermarkets etc. and also how much Scottish history and culture is part of education in comparison with England (can’t comment on Wales).
I am the least patriotic person on the planet but I surprise myself by quite liking it.

This!

I see patriotism as royalist, flag shagging, blind loyalty and find the whole thing gross. But even if I didn't I see no reason to be proud of where I happened to be born.

I love where I live for lots of reasons and I do joke about allegiance to my county (not country) but it is just a joke.

I find this country disgusting in many ways.
Our politics and values are individualistic, cruel and rotten to the core. Nothing to celebrate here.

I think a country has to offer citizens a good life in order to earn patriotism. Or are least try to offer it. We're all seeing the open contempt for ordinary people from the wealthy MPs and members of the House of Lords. They happily twist laws and regulations to line their pockets while we have children with scurvy and rickets. Our taxes are hurried away to bomb other countries then the bombed refugees are blamed for a housing shortage, even though council houses were massively sold off.

This government and the previous have caused our non patriotism themselves.

I think plenty would be turned by a strongman leader. I’ve never heard that term before, but I imagine that’s what Hitler was - iirc Germany was in disarray before he took power.

Personally I’m holding out hope for a matriarchal system to come into place. Not holding my breath though!

There are bits of the UK I like, for the scenery mostly, but I am not patriotic.

The country is shit and getting worse. Politics, economics, crime, the state of the NHS, lack of basic manners in many people. Litter everywhere, unsafe streets, the smell of weed everywhere you go.

As a pp said our flag has been taken over by thugs. And our national anthem is crap. I don't believe in any god and have no time for the royal family, even before the queen died. God save our gracious monarch is utterly irrelevant to me and I refuse to sing it (My work means it sometimes crops up).

We have a Government that governs and thrives on dividing society and exploiting divisions.

I don't think we have a Government that wants to help its people and its country. It wants to divide us.

That's not very patriotic.

This has got me thinking about the meaning of pride and patriotism.

There are things I value about Britain. There are things I am sentimental about. There are also things I dislike and wish were different.

The disconnect for me comes when thinking about the above in terms of pride. I tend to only feel pride for things I have personally played a part in or influenced. I don't feel pride by association. When I watch sports, I feel happy for the winning team, and extra happy if I wanted that team to win, but I don't feel pride. When my children achieve success, I do feel sone pride, as I typically have contributed to the success.

I think of patriotism in terms of a mix of pride and loyalty. I struggle a bit to disaggregate loyalty and self interest though. British people have a vested interest in Britain being prosperous and independent. Wanting to protect it can be rationally driven rather than emotionally driven. To me, the term patriotism reflects subjective feelings rather than rationale thought processes.

I've never felt patriotic. It's pure chance that I happen to have been born in Britain.

There are good things about the country and there are shit things about the country. Same as everywhere else.

Most people are decent, some are wonderful and some are scum. Same as everywhere else.

I've never really understood patriotism.

I don’t agree with patriotism- I’m not convinced it leads to anything positive, here or overseas

I'm not patriotic at all.

The UK is simply somewhere I was born. I lived and worked there for a few years.

I've done nothing to make Britain proud of me. I don't feel any particular affinity to British people really.

I certainly wouldn't fight in an army for Britain nor would I be very happy if my dcs enlisted. For what?