Patriotism: are you patriotic and how far would you take it?

[rickyrickygrimes]

There’s a big article in the Times today, bemoaning the lack of patriotism in young people today and linking it to their reluctance to join the armed forces or do national service. Are you / your children patriotic?

How does patriotism work for people who live somewhere other than where they were born? We’re in this situation. All British but we’ve been living in France for nearly 20 years. My youngest will soon get French nationality, so he will have dual citizenship. My oldest is also British, he was born in NZ so has New Zealand nationality - and he will likely take French citizenship when he turns 18. Which of those three countries should he fight for?

A young person in the article when asked about national service said “it seems a little unfair to give up your first two years of adulthood providing for a country you may feel adequately represent you.’ . It made me wonder if ’representation’ is what is required for people to feel patriotic- and what does it mean? How does patriotism fit in a multicultural society?

God I can tick 2 of those boxes! The NHS, maybe not, though I still think it is a better concept in theory than having to rely on private health insurance.
Keep going! I am fascinated to measure my patriotism against someone else's criteria.

I love Britain but basically I think all signs of the cycle of civilisational decline are there and some may require a century or so to rectify.

• NHS in ruins.
• Local businesses closing down.
• our Class system, a longstanding weakness of this country, has worsened over time.
• Young middle class educated couples struggle to afford homes, aren't settling down, aren't having babies.
• Adults in HMO.
• Almost half of all property in London is foreign owned.
• The working class can spend countless hours at menial jobs, and still struggle to afford a home or put heating on.
• The elderly dying in winter.
• Falling marriage rates.
• One of the highest obesity rates in Europe.
• Racism.
• Grooming gangs.
• New and emerging cultural tensions.
• Record breaking levels of immigration under the Conservative party.
• We've been bombarded with a whole decade+ of this narrative that the West is this terribly toxic and uniquely evil entity, and therefore must be destroyed for example calls to "Defund the Police!" "Decolonise Science!" Rewrite curriculums and tear down statues etc.
• Men and masculinity are inherently toxic and bad, so men should behave like women to the point of becoming them.
• OnlyFans is pinnacle of female liberation.
• Hookup culture is empowering, isn't it girls, don't we just love it.
• Teenage girls decline in mental health (linked to social media use and lower socioeconomic status.)
• White middle class women are all Dolores Karen Umbridge.
• Churches abandoned or demolished.
• Royal family is essentially a powerless tourist attraction, loathed and laughed at as much or more than is appreciated.
• We prioritise spending billions on war while our country falls apart.
• Iraq war unforgivable and caused immense suffering and damage.
• Schools underachieving, and evidence shows a decline in IQ levels.
• Rishis' proposal to eliminate A-levels and extend compulsory education in Maths and English until the age of 18, is a highly unrealistic notion. IMO the root of our issue lies in social class disparities, which cannot be resolved so easily.
• Drinking culture problem.
• Emerging cocaine epidemic- second biggest users of it globally.
• Influencer worship.
• Teenagers of all races going around in gangs, vaping, undertaking public pranks for Tiktok clout and finally, stabbing each other often to death.
• A concerning absence of politeness, trust, and decorum everywhere.
• Loss of British identity, down to our distinct accents melting and mingling into some variation of MLE.
• Rape crises centres underfunded and not resourced to meet increased demand.
• Mental health services see above.

It's unsurprising that many are not gagging for their sons or nephews to be cannon fodder or come back from wars with PTSD. We already have enough on our plate. Perhaps every journo and politician who suggests such a course of action should be the very first to volunteer themselves, as well as their own children, for the cause?

It's an interesting question.

I am not British (Australian) and have lived in Australia and Great Britain for exactly 50% of my lifetime each.

In the UK I do not feel British. I know I am not British. Keep being reminded of it when people ask me where I am from or 'what brought you here' or in the case of a former line manager who told me the first time I met her after being employed that the company ought to be keeping British jobs for British people.

I was in Oz a few months ago as my parents were in hospital and I no longer feel Australian either. It's not my country anymore. I don't follow the politics or think about it much in my daily life. (Does not stop people in the UK angrily demanding me to explain the ins and outs of the Voice referendum though and telling me that all Australians are racist).

I have made my life in the UK. I am quite bonded to it and my Dcs have dual nationality. Do I feel patriotic? Well- I think I feel patriotic about what the UK represents - what the ideals of modern democracies are meant to be I think. Tolerance. Freedom. Integrity as a nation and respect.

In terms of national service. I think freedom and security is worth fighting for. But I am terrified of my boys being called up to fight obviously. I would see them as fighting not for the UK per se but for the principles of freedom and humanity.

I think.

I was brought up in a school system that enforced the values of Great Britain and the Empire. How kind we had been to raise the ignorant from their idolatry and ignorance! How lucky those countries were!

Obviously as I grew older I saw things more clearly and began to understand the complexities of politics and history.

My wife wrote this, it summarises how I feel.
"I have never been more ashamed of our country than I am today. Honestly, it is unbelievable, I thought naively that we would never turn our backs on genocide, bomb the poorest country in Yemen without justification, stop the vital funding saving lives, education, healthcare, food on the ground in Palestine.

Where is our humanity gone?

This is beyond heartbreaking.
I am scared, scared of how inhumane we are as a nation. We sit in our privileged little country, ignorant and compliant like the good nodding dogs they want us to be.

We either believe in human rights and international justice or we throw them out to our peril.

#NotInMyName"

The UK OTOH is proudly multicultural

We are indeed a mongrel race. There isn't any point in these islands history when there has not been some sort of inward movement from our surrounding neighbours.

Even the people that built Stonehenge came from Turkey (as did England patron saint).

"I'm as British as Queen Victoria !"

"So your father's German, you're half German and you married a German!?"

Maybe it's working with people in their own homes after health crises that makes me patriotic, if anything does. Nice people living heartfelt lives and families making stuff work. People desperate to get back to their jobs, to connect to their friends and family.

But that's not exactly patriotism. And it makes me sadder about aspects of British culture that are toxic, principally the drinking culture. I guess I can be pleased that for whatever reason, in younger people the connection between being British and drinking to the point of ruining your health is being broken.

I am Welsh and find the levels of patriotism in Wales frankly embarrassing. All these flags. It's dreadful. It's the same in Scotland. To be fair, England isn't as bad. To be honest, Brexit killed any pride I might have had in Britain.