Patriotism: are you patriotic and how far would you take it?

[rickyrickygrimes]

There’s a big article in the Times today, bemoaning the lack of patriotism in young people today and linking it to their reluctance to join the armed forces or do national service. Are you / your children patriotic?

How does patriotism work for people who live somewhere other than where they were born? We’re in this situation. All British but we’ve been living in France for nearly 20 years. My youngest will soon get French nationality, so he will have dual citizenship. My oldest is also British, he was born in NZ so has New Zealand nationality - and he will likely take French citizenship when he turns 18. Which of those three countries should he fight for?

A young person in the article when asked about national service said “it seems a little unfair to give up your first two years of adulthood providing for a country you may feel adequately represent you.’ . It made me wonder if ’representation’ is what is required for people to feel patriotic- and what does it mean? How does patriotism fit in a multicultural society?

What @Brainworm said.

I love living where I do, I like exploring the history and culture of my own country (and I think it's a bit odd to say that there isn't any media interest in this, there are constant programmes about British history, culture and geography). I value that this is a pretty safe country that has public services open to all, and standards that allow us to say they aren't well run at the moment.

I wake up to see an England flag waving in the garden of a neighbour, and I'm more likely to want to take pot shots at it with an air rifle than salute it. But I can also see a famous ancient path from my window and I enjoy being one of many who have walked it.

I wonder sometimes what I would feel if I woke up to see tanks of another country in my road. I would definitely feel a territorial reaction and would want to fight back, though probably not by rushing out and letting myself be crushed by said tanks. But I don't think patriotism should be defined by how willing we are to wear a uniform in a hierarchy led by the King. It's awfully convenient for the rulers if that is the only way patriotism can be shown.

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor

yes, it is two very different situations. Defending oneself against an invading aggressor vs being drawn into a conflict due to our obligations to other nation state’s or having signed up to international / regional treaties, like NATO.

@midgetastic

If the UK had a change of government (to whichever one you had voted for) and we still got taken into a conflict outside the UK due to our obligations to NATO - such as in Ukraine / Russia - would that be acceptable to you? What about of China invaded Taiwan - which would have enormous impacts on our lives here in the UK even though it’s not our turf?

is one’s level of commitment to the nation state contingent on approving of the government in power at the time?

So the question is if you’d want people to help fight for you when up against it then it’s a two way pact

A question which has nothing to do with conscription if you have a properly funded army. I refer you back to my point that all this frothing is against a backdrop of a UK government that does everything on the cheap

If you are pinning your safety and security on the notion of forcing people to fight for you against their will, then you have already lost, my friend.

I’m Irish. Would consider myself patriotic. Love the country, our language, our sports, our resilience. Some things I hate about it particularly the backward obsession with the Catholic Church and the implications of that. I do love being Irish though.

I wonder sometimes what I would feel if I woke up to see tanks of another country in my road.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_at_the_Door

Used to be in 2012. Even had Union Jack converse boots!
But since Brexit and the Tory government, absolutely not. In fact I am utterly mortified by this country.

Not in the slightest bit patriotic, and find it all rather odd and distasteful. You are only here by an accident of birth. I am fond of Britain as a country (customs, idiosyncrasies etc) and I wouldn't particularly want to live anywhere else as my friends and family wouldn't be there. But I don't believe we are better than anyone else, or more special than any other country.

I would absolutely not join the armed forces unless the only other option was death. I would defend my own house and family, but that's as far as it goes.

So you’re more pay extra to fund others to fight in another country

I’m sure many feel the same

I haven’t posted on conscription btw

Also Welsh living in England. I am patriotic for Wales.
I think that on the whole, small countries are more patriotic than bigger ones

I find the idea of patriotism strange. Never have been, never will be. I couldn't care less about my nationality. I'm ashamed of the UK, tbh.

So you’re more pay extra to fund others to fight in another country

Wow. Such a binary world we live in. Thank goodness we got rid of nuance, eh ? Might require thinking.

I find national pride a bizarre concept. Why would I be proud of an accident of birth?

If the UK was really blazing a trail for making the world a better place - eradicating poverty, inequality and injustice, making huge strides forward in tackling climate change etc - then I would certainly be proud of that.

But just being proud to be British for no particular reason? Why would I?

This made me laugh

Ok aggro not sure why you went on the attack but have a great day

What do we have to be patriotic about? This country is absolutely going to shit. Yes we have basic rights, that you'd expect from any civilised society. But we are so lacking in so may ways I'm absolutely in no way proud of my country. I'd honestly question anyone's intelligence who was.

Aggro ? Moi ?

Surely "robust debating style" ?

and E.M. Forster applies as much as the good Dr.

'I love being [insert the name of any country]'

To me, this is akin to being in love with a person. A lot has been written about whether we actually love the person or the ideas/story we build about who we think that person is. We may also love who we are when we are with them / what they drawn out in us.

I think people who 'love their country' love whatever the story they tell themselves about their country (which will be based on facts but also deletions and distortions of 'the truth'). They will love the aspects that help them feel good about themselves, who they are, and what they are enabled to do.

As a species, we seem to be going through a period of highlighted and magnifying micro differences and their importance. However, as a species, our basic needs and what leads to contentment is universal to all. It is fascinating that we seem to be pulling more and more in the direction of amplifying difference.

I don't think it'll be the downfall of the species, because, I think when the chips are down, survival instincts will kick in and people will pull together.

I really hope that it won't take a disaster for people to see how divisive the identity is king phenomena has become- creating divisions that are not facilitating inclusion, as is often believed.

Too late to edit but a good day to you too.

I think people have varying ideas of what patriotism is. For some people it’s all the knucklehead stuff, flags, royalty and armed forces.

I like to think of it as much more nuanced. Thinking about things carefully and taking positions that are ultimately beneficial for the country, the population and how we interact with the world. Sometimes standing up for less popular policies and choices because you think they’re right.

'I think small counties are more patriotic than big ones'.

I think the more homogenous a country is, in terms of citizenship, the more likely you are to find patriotism. More diverse populations the more divergence there will be in values, norms and beliefs. This makes it harder for citizens to share a single image of a country that one can be or not be patriotic about.

If you want nuance (and I realise not everyone does) then patriotism is having the boldly aspirational "Jerusalem" as any national anthem rather than the idiotic drivel that is (now) GSTK.

I'd rather live under a theme of building paradise on earth, than keeping a pampered fluke of conception in a big house for free. But as most folk have twigged, I'm probably a bit weird.

Incidentally, as Prince, Chuck has gone on record as being a massive fan of Parry (even did a BBC documentary on him). So why hasn't he had the time to change the national anthem ? There is literally no paperwork to be done on that one.

Having a love for one's country doesn't equate to putting yourself on the front line as cannon fodder.

The government is delusional if they think they can introduce national service again. If NS is not to take the UK to war, in what way will it benefit conscripts?

It's also interesting as you get further away, any differences tend to fade away. There are large parts of the world that only see "Britain" rather than 4 constituent countries. In much the same way we see "America" rather than 50 distinct states, or "Asian" to cover an entire continent.

think the more homogenous a country is, in terms of citizenship, the more likely you are to find patriotism. More diverse populations the more divergence there will be in values, norms and beliefs. This makes it harder for citizens to share a single image of a country that one can be or not be patriotic about.

• *This is really interesting from the French / UK perspective. France is defiantly not multicultural: immigrants are expected to assimilate to the French way of life. There is very little tolerance for anything that deviates from that - whether it’s religious or cultural practices. And I would say the French are very patriotic. There certainly aren’t any festivals related to non French cultures here - not in schools, not in the streets.

Thé UK OTOH is proudly multicultural - which does lead to the question what are British values? What is the ‘British way of life” when so many people lead so many diverse lifestyles in Britain? It’s hard to unite behind a single ‘flag’ when values and cultures are so diverse.

i guess Singapore manages a multicultural society by being very authoritarian, by imposing the same values on all irrespective of their nationality.

I've been thinking maybe I am patriotic and I just don't know it.

Instead of general things that tell you nothing like "culture" and "tradition"
We should cobble together a list of specifics and if you check them all, congrats, you're patriotic.

Likes Morris dancing.
Thinks the NHS is the envy of the world.
Has fish and chips every Friday.

That sort of thing. 🤣

I think I was patriotic back in the 90's. Since then everything's gone to shit and it's only getting worse and worse.