Patriotism: are you patriotic and how far would you take it?

[rickyrickygrimes]

There’s a big article in the Times today, bemoaning the lack of patriotism in young people today and linking it to their reluctance to join the armed forces or do national service. Are you / your children patriotic?

How does patriotism work for people who live somewhere other than where they were born? We’re in this situation. All British but we’ve been living in France for nearly 20 years. My youngest will soon get French nationality, so he will have dual citizenship. My oldest is also British, he was born in NZ so has New Zealand nationality - and he will likely take French citizenship when he turns 18. Which of those three countries should he fight for?

A young person in the article when asked about national service said “it seems a little unfair to give up your first two years of adulthood providing for a country you may feel adequately represent you.’ . It made me wonder if ’representation’ is what is required for people to feel patriotic- and what does it mean? How does patriotism fit in a multicultural society?

’Patriotic’ isn’t really a word I would use to describe myself. I have always been too independent minded & cynical for that word to fit me.
I do remember what it felt like to be proud of my country, though. The last time was around the London Olympics. Britain was seen around the world as a modern, forward-looking, successful multicultural country and an example to others of how to run a 21st century society.

Then came the Brexit referendum and everything which followed on from that. I’m now embarrassed to be British. This country is now seen by others as something between a disgrace and a joke.

This country is now seen by others as something between a disgrace and a joke

I think there are people in many countries who would like to live in a country with similar rules, standards etc to the UK.

We do have massive issues but compared to many other countries, we are stable, we have health care, education, democracy, not much corruption and little violence.

I think social media has dismantled pride and a sense of belonging to traditional groupings (countries, religions etc.). In place of this it has enabled the creation of lots of smaller sub cultures that reinforce difference and, alongside it, entrenched views that outsiders can never understand insiders. This is serving to divide and alienate people from those around them

Why should I be patriotic or proud? I didn't choose to be born here. I've achieved nothing to shape the country either. I may be glad there are certain things and unhappy other things are lacking but pride or patriotism? Pfft.

Flag waving because of an accident of birth? No.

I feel no loyalty to the UK. I'm not proud of being British. I'm a dual national through marriage and I'm not proud of being Kenyan either as it's just the country my husband happened to be born in 🤷 although at least it's a place we can leg it to if the UK looks like it's actually going to go to war.

I am English and consider myself patriotic. As another poster said, it isn't really about flag waving or royalty or approving of the government but it is about loving the culture and traditions and character of this land. I feel an urge to protect it. But I am in my 60s so not the young demographic you were asking about.
Of my children who are in that young adult demographic, I would say 2 would agree with most posters here, 1 I don't know about, and 1 would say he was patriotic and would gladly defend England. In fact he was talking about doing so the other day, though he has not chosen the armed forces as a career.

"I am English and consider myself patriotic. As another poster said, it isn't really about flag waving or royalty or approving of the government but it is about loving the culture and traditions and character of this land. I feel an urge to protect it. But I am in my 60s so not the young demographic you were asking about"

The culture and traditions of this land have changed over the centuries.

Are you happy with all culture and traditions - or are you happy that some of the culture and traditions have changed?

You probably don't know what traditions and cultures have vanished - as they have vanished, so you don't know what you don't know and can't miss what you never had.

I'm not patriotic at all. I wouldn't fight or die for any country

I think the point about 'loving the culture and traditions and character of this land. I feel an urge to protect it' it an interesting one and starts to tap into politics.

Does 'protecting' refer to 'conserving' and keeping safe from change?

Would you be ok with any outcome though? An invading force that attacked, killed and subjugated for example

I agree with this.

@picklesandcucumbers

but would you fight to preserve things that you value and which currently exist in ‘your country’? The right to vote? The right to wear what you want? The right to worship (or not) as you choose? For equality ? For fair and free institutions? For the right to abortion? Or whatever you do value.

I have a right to vote but it counts for nothing

I have a right to equality but it's not happening

Yes I can see other countries are worse

I don't believe fighting is a way to solve anything

If someone invaded and threatened my life yes I would fight back

If this government decided to take us to war - fuck off . I never voted you in and I don't believe you have a clue how to act in the best interest of the country

We won’t go to war unless drawn in via NATO defence pact

I think this sums it up perfectly.

This is such an interesting thread and really made me think. I decided I would describe myself as patriotic as I value the scenery, heritage, culture, humour, and way of life, even though I can clearly see wrongs and feel ashamed of having a venal and corrupt ruling and political class (including the royal family), huge inequality and Brexit.
I would expect every effort to be put into ensuring peace but, in the last resort, I and my children would defend family, home and way of life if aggressors attacked it here. But I and my children wouldn’t join any UK war elsewhere as we don’t trust any politician after the cannon fodder of the First World War and being America’s poodle in the trumped up Iraq war.
It worries me that we’re being subliminally prepared for another war to distract from economic and political mess.

Yes, to some extent. Of course in saying that I realise I sound reactionary and against multi culturalism, but that isn't what motivates me. I enjoy other cultures and the mix we have here in Britain. I just happen to feel the strongest affiliation to the culture I was born into. But, as I said before, I am an older generation to the one in question here. So I guess my feelings are losing relevance here.

I'm English and not patriotic at all. My DH is Welsh and incredibly patriotic. Our little girl has a very Welsh name but I'm good with that because it's beautiful and holds a very special meaning ❤️
I have to go out when the rugby is on because his shouting gives me a bad headache 😂

I am interested that posters say they would in no way defend their country against an aggressor. Really? I find that so hard to believe. It is a natural human instinct to protect oneself against an attack, be it on a personal, family, community or, God forbid it should come to it, a national level.

Welsh. Neither patriotic to wales nor United Kingdom. Would happily emigrate.

Also find it all a bit cringe and far right tinged.

@cakeorwine I have to disagree. Having travelled widely, this county definitely isn’t viewed like that. It’s not revered but it’s not looked down upon.

It is quite different though defending the interests of the UK and defending their immediate family and community. The last successful invasion of England was nearly a millennia ago. Perhaps this is part of the problem. People do not feel sufficiently invested in the interests of the UK but yet also do not see the imminent, tangible danger in a way that their signing up to the armed forces will make any difference to the immediate safety of their family/community.

When patriotism fixes our schools, hospitals, justice system, provision for the most vulnerable and giving everyone access to the same opportunities, I'll be all for it.

Until then I notice the unsavoury types who drape themselves in a symbol and consider the good Dr, Johnson was ever right about patriotism and we would do well to heed his views.

I’m sure those fighting in Ukraine would like this freedom too

Fortunately it’s just an mn thread with people musing and not a reality, how lucky we are

I’m sure those fighting in Ukraine would like this freedom too

When the hordes are at my door, there will be no end to my ferocity.

But I would not ever go to someone elses country to fight in the name of mine.

All this talk of patriotism and conscription is merely a continuation of the capitalist fetish for doing everything (except ruling) on the cheap. And any idiot who falls for it is holding themselves cheap.

But I would not ever go to someone elses country to fight in the name of mine.

I doubt many would given the choice, but NATO means a defence pact, and that’s really the only way it would happen

So the question is if you’d want people to help fight for you when up against it then it’s a two way pact

Probably not you personally fighting btw but if you want NATO to defend someone will be