Patriotism: are you patriotic and how far would you take it?

[rickyrickygrimes]

There’s a big article in the Times today, bemoaning the lack of patriotism in young people today and linking it to their reluctance to join the armed forces or do national service. Are you / your children patriotic?

How does patriotism work for people who live somewhere other than where they were born? We’re in this situation. All British but we’ve been living in France for nearly 20 years. My youngest will soon get French nationality, so he will have dual citizenship. My oldest is also British, he was born in NZ so has New Zealand nationality - and he will likely take French citizenship when he turns 18. Which of those three countries should he fight for?

A young person in the article when asked about national service said “it seems a little unfair to give up your first two years of adulthood providing for a country you may feel adequately represent you.’ . It made me wonder if ’representation’ is what is required for people to feel patriotic- and what does it mean? How does patriotism fit in a multicultural society?

I don’t feel particularly patriotic at the moment. I’m ashamed of our government and also many of the people in the UK. We lived abroad for 7 years and came back last year. I was very surprised to see how much the UK had changed in our absence. We’ve gone from an open, welcoming and tolerant society to one that tears down difference and doesn’t tolerate anything or anyone seen as being an ‘outsider’ - wether that’s refugees, trans people or those with disabilities or SEN. The issues in each case are different (and I don’t want to start yet another trans debate on Mumsnet!) but I see the same attitude of ‘well it doesn’t affect ME so why should I care?’ From both ordinary people and the government. As a nation we seem to have lost our compassion over the last 10 years or so.

basically I’m not patriotic because I don’t see much to be proud of right now.

Wanting to protect it can be rationally driven rather than emotionally driven.

@Brainworm

this is an interesting point. My DS (16) kind of said this last night when we were talking about this, and his experience of being an immigrant in France - albeit as a white, male, fluent French speaker and almost totally integrated into French life. He doesn’t feel ‘French’ emotionally but he absolutely recognises what an excellent country France is to live in: free / subsidised public health care, generally safe, good schools, free to worship or not, social welfare, equal rights for women etc. It is absolutely rational to want to protect these things and doesn’t need to be an emotional decision.

Also I don't understand how you can be proud of a country when you were simply born there.

Those who are proud of their nationality might as well be proud of having knees or fingernails.

What is it these proud people do to contribute to their country in particular? How do they add to its greatness? Just by being?

Definitely agree with you there! The Scottish and Welsh are way more patriotic than the english!

I would like to ask someone in charge what patriotism looks like?
I support England in the rugby but I don't get upset if they lose.
I am not a Monarchist - but I do like seeing the ceremonial events and I think the UK does a good job at doing that.
I can talk up the UK on many things that it does well - but I can also point out its issues. Some people think it's unpatriotic to criticise the UK.

"Wanting to defend it" is interesting.
If it was the Russians attacking, then yes, I would defend it.
But if it was France (which would be a surprise), well maybe a French take over would be a good thing.

I think we’re lucky here not to need to feel a particular way.

It hasn’t been tested as it has in Ukraine, when way of life is threatened by an aggressor

Hopefully we can remain happily blasé and non caring. Even more I hope our dc can.

I felt european and was quite proud about that. Felt very at home across europe and its massive shared history. I now feel a bit out if sorts to be honest.
I guess I need to be part of creating a post brexit uk i feel good about. Not sure how.

Love the countryside and cities though, plus a lot of literature and music.

I would describe myself as patriotic although I think I mean something different from what others on this thread mean. I feel a deep emotional connection to my country, its people, land and culture.

However, I’m not a flag-waver, I don’t assume Britain is always right or better than anywhere else (in fact I think we’ve taken a serious wrong turn and we’re feeling the results). I don’t feel “pride” in the negative sense. I do feel love and connection.

I think English people struggle with patriotism because it’s tied up for us with jingoism and empire. But it is possible to be patriotic without jingoism, to be aware of wrongs we’ve done in the past and to love your country while still criticising it- in fact the criticism is part of the love. If you didn’t care, why would you bother?

@EasternStandard i was just about to say something like that. It’s easy to mock the idea of patriotism but when push comes to shove, would we allow a different (worse) set of values / beliefs / systems be imposed upon is from outside, by force? Would we step up to defend something (Britain) in that situation, even with all its faults? It’s not something that’s been tested for a long time. Which, looking around the world, is quite a luxury.

I don't feel patriotic. We seem to have destroyed what it means to be British. Multiculturalism is fine, but we no longer appear to be teaching anything about British culture. I've seen far more festivals for other cultures and alternative ideas than anything to do with British history/culture. It appears that the only thing people know about British history is the slave trade and we have to be like the self-flagellating monks forever more because of it.

We also seem to be destroying communities and wider family units. We also don't seem to be trying to help teach or improve the life chances of the masses. It also doesn't help that we seem to be trying to get rid of channels that created British content in favour of cheap crap from elsewhere. Even through TV we are mostly learning about other cultures and very little s about the UK.

No wonder most people have no idea what it means to be British and think that it's no better/worse than elsewhere.

"in fact the criticism is part of the love. If you didn’t care, why would you bother"

This.
This country is pretty good - especially compared to many many other countries. I don't think many people actually appreciate the freedom and what we have here.

But it has its issues and it's ok to mention that without being told " to leave by people with English flags in their Twitter Bio"

It's like some people thin patriotism means loving your country and not allowing anyone to dare question things as that's unpatriotic.

Last refuge of the scoundrel. Often tips into jingoism and exceptionalism.

I am not. I don't like our government, nor do I trust them. They'll end up screwing over anyone who does sign up. They're screwing us all out of everything. The power imbalance shows how little they actually care about normal people. They'd sacrifice us to retain power.

The UK only really cares about London and the general SE. I'm in the very north of England and do not feel represented at all by anyone in government.

I would leave UK if I could. If I didn't have so many ties here. I will not allow my child to be sacrificed for the fat cats.

According to Theresa May (remember her?), I’m a ‘citizen of nowhere’. So, no, I’m not in the slightest bit patriotic, mainly due to the Tories and Brexit voters. Back in 1997 there was so much hope and positivity. Now we just hate each other.

Yes it’s a luxury and I know I have it. And my dc too. I’ll be grateful for that given the world news. Rubbishing those who act would be an insult to people who are being tested right now. How lucky we are not to be tested

I am also a citizen of nowhere. That has its consequences. One of them is feeling little allegiance to any country.

I don't feel that the positive aspects of the English national identity is as strong as other countries. England feels far more disjointed and by area of the country for example by wealth divide

If people don't feel "on the same team" they're not going to feel pride for that team

@cakeorwine

interesting you should say that. Both my DSs will have British and French nationality. Who should they fight for, if France and Britain come to blows?

i read a geopolitics article once that claimed dual / multiple nationalities are a total nonsense, because the core of a declaration of nationality is “which nation would you give your life, the ultimate sacrifice, to defend?” And you can only choose one side.

Of course, Yorkshire is brilliant - is that patriotism or just total support for a county, not a country.

What did Norman Tebbit say about the cricket test?
I went to live in Australia for a while - if I had become an Australian citizen and England were playing Australia at rugby / cricket, who would I support?

Patriotism isn't about the royal family, joining the armed forces or approving of the government's actions universally - I think it's more about a general pride in your country, and until the chips are down, you don't really see it in general society in Europe, it's not our bag to show things like this overly. Even Americans aren't as in to it as before...

Thank said when things do go awry, that's when you see it, we thankfully aren't in that position

I used to be patriotic when I was younger but I’m not any more. It’s nothing to do with Brexit, I just feel that no one in government represents me and that the vast majority of politicians are in it for themselves and their cronies. Having travelled a fair bit and having family living in different countries, it’s the same problems everywhere else around the world so I wouldn’t want to live anywhere other than England. That doesn’t make me patriotic though…..I just haven’t seen anything better out there.

Like your children, I have three nationalities, and I think that does influence how I feel about patriotism. I love each of those countries. Their culture, values, and languages have shaped the person who I am today. I want each of those countries.to be the best that they can be. All three of my countries have done wonderful things,but also terrible things, and I don't think that loving your country should mean turning abling eye to the bad stuff, but instead should mean taking steps to stop things like that from happening again. For me, patriotism isn't about thinking that your country is better than anywhere else, but is about working to make it the best that it can be, the sort of place that inspired people from other countries.

But the French had a revolution to create that patriotism. Since the queen died Royal patriotism is fizzling out.

Brexit is also a contributor & this god awful greedy government.