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XenaPW · 27/01/2024 21:11

Messyhair321 · 27/01/2024 20:07

Sometimes parents can change & I've seen this even after some have been removed. We can't suggest that people don''t change or can't just because children have been removed. The big issue is that there's absolutely no support for parents who fo have children removed, which is so hugely traumatic, full of shame & I cannot imagine how anyone could move on especially without targeted support.
I stand by the theory that having children removed perpetuates so much damage & harm to all involved & while I recognise that sometimes this is necessary, it's no surprise that once this happens, the pattern could repeat & the harm cycle continues .

You are right, again, I often see the reverse which is always in the child's best interests if the child can stay with the parent. It might not happen with all parents for different reasons but I know there are many people who had so many children removed and are now ready to change and they are accessing detox services, etc, regular testing and many children do remain after a parent being in a bad cycle. I do think that when children are removed there is not enough support for when children leave and then it just means like you say, they often end up repeating past mistakes. The only issue in their case, is because for SS to consider them keeping the child, concealing it makes it difficult. Most inform SS and then are re-assessed to see if they can with a plan in place.

Messyhair321 · 28/01/2024 21:11

XenaPW · 27/01/2024 21:11

You are right, again, I often see the reverse which is always in the child's best interests if the child can stay with the parent. It might not happen with all parents for different reasons but I know there are many people who had so many children removed and are now ready to change and they are accessing detox services, etc, regular testing and many children do remain after a parent being in a bad cycle. I do think that when children are removed there is not enough support for when children leave and then it just means like you say, they often end up repeating past mistakes. The only issue in their case, is because for SS to consider them keeping the child, concealing it makes it difficult. Most inform SS and then are re-assessed to see if they can with a plan in place.

I know this isn't a popular opinion but I feel really sorry for people in this couple's position. I don't agree with what they did but totally get what happened & why.

GaroTheMushroom · 28/01/2024 21:14

In what way do you get it?

KarenNotAKaren · 28/01/2024 21:19

Messyhair321 · 28/01/2024 21:11

I know this isn't a popular opinion but I feel really sorry for people in this couple's position. I don't agree with what they did but totally get what happened & why.

You get that they carried their baby around in a carrier bag and had plenty of money for taxis but didn’t choose to buy warm clothing for their newborn?

Wintersonata · 28/01/2024 21:19

I don't agree with what they did but totally get what happened & why.

Eh?

MarshaMarshaMarshmellow · 28/01/2024 21:22

Messyhair321 · 28/01/2024 21:11

I know this isn't a popular opinion but I feel really sorry for people in this couple's position. I don't agree with what they did but totally get what happened & why.

Even though we don't know why their 4 other children were taken away? I mean, so far we know the father is a rapist who's spent most of his life in prison, the mother has spent time in a cult and says her partner has mental health problems, and every description of their shared life that's been published has painted a picture of total squalor and disorder. It wasn't even the first time they were living in a tent - apparently they were doing this with a previous child too. I don't know what reasons we're given for removing the older children, but I'm prepared for the possibility that we have not yet heard everything about this couple and their lifestyle. I think it's premature for anyone to say they "totally get" what happened, unless you're simply saying that you "get" that they knew their baby would be taken into care.

Wintersonata · 28/01/2024 22:30

Surely drugs are involved though that hasn’t been mentioned.
They usually are when there’s this level of chaos.

KarenNotAKaren · 28/01/2024 22:44

Having worked in child protection I can assure you, despite what parents may claim, children are not removed for just a dirty house or MH problems - to have FOUR children removed indicates an extremely serious child protection issue. Thank god those 4 children are now safe. All the stick social services get, no one considers that 4 lives may have been saved in removing these children

GirlAnachro · 29/01/2024 03:19

Mambo19866 · 25/01/2024 20:33

Anyone else think after a certain point you should be able to enforce a hysterectomy or some form of sterilisation? I know I’m probably being unreasonable

I think the same tbh, this isn’t the first story I’ve witnessed of unfit parents having a child taken off them, only to get pregnant again shortly after, with the same outcome, then get pregnant again… so many young children being removed from abuse, neglect, and put into a care system that is overburdened at best, and can be equally abusive at worst. I know there are many wonderful, nurturing care homes and adoptive parents, but also some quite the opposite. It just means more kids growing up with issues (through no fault of their own!) ranging from abandonment issues to maladjusted coping mechanisms etc. Heartbreaking!
You have to take lessons and pass a test and learn to drive a vehicle, if you risk other lives by driving selfishly and recklessly, you get your license taken away from you. But literally any woman can have child after child even after proving she (and dad if in the picture) will fuck up their start in life?
It’s human lives ffs!
fuck knows how this could be prevented though. I imagine all sorts of rights and ethics would abound, and probably rightly so. And some mothers really do make superhuman efforts to turn their lives around and get their kids back or go on to be good mums to a next child.
But the ones that just continue to pop out child after child, almost defiantly, without changing the circumstances that had the last one(s) removed, I’m sorry to say if she is living in a mindset so selfish, devoid of empathy and un self-aware, there should be measures taken to prevent her producing any more offspring.
Sigh. RIP Victoria, what a cruel short life wasted.

Messyhair321 · 29/01/2024 09:30

MarshaMarshaMarshmellow · 28/01/2024 21:22

Even though we don't know why their 4 other children were taken away? I mean, so far we know the father is a rapist who's spent most of his life in prison, the mother has spent time in a cult and says her partner has mental health problems, and every description of their shared life that's been published has painted a picture of total squalor and disorder. It wasn't even the first time they were living in a tent - apparently they were doing this with a previous child too. I don't know what reasons we're given for removing the older children, but I'm prepared for the possibility that we have not yet heard everything about this couple and their lifestyle. I think it's premature for anyone to say they "totally get" what happened, unless you're simply saying that you "get" that they knew their baby would be taken into care.

Yes actually the information it is only from media sources, who are just looking at selling stories.
Can you imagine having 4 children removed? As I've said before on this thread. There is no support for parents who have children removed & it leads to so much harm & trauma.
I don't prescribe to the idea that people are evil, this is two damaged human beings, it's not good enough to say these are just bad people who are evil, this is what the newspaper trots out.
This is the product of years of being left down, repeated trauma, mental health, substance abuse none of which has been addressed.

RowanMayfair · 29/01/2024 09:32

Messyhair321 · 29/01/2024 09:30

Yes actually the information it is only from media sources, who are just looking at selling stories.
Can you imagine having 4 children removed? As I've said before on this thread. There is no support for parents who have children removed & it leads to so much harm & trauma.
I don't prescribe to the idea that people are evil, this is two damaged human beings, it's not good enough to say these are just bad people who are evil, this is what the newspaper trots out.
This is the product of years of being left down, repeated trauma, mental health, substance abuse none of which has been addressed.

The media in this particular article are quoting the actual trial that's going on.

Do you think they neglected Victoria because of the trauma of having 4 children removed? Do you think you're missing a piece of the picture there?

MarshaMarshaMarshmellow · 29/01/2024 09:32

Messyhair321 · 29/01/2024 09:30

Yes actually the information it is only from media sources, who are just looking at selling stories.
Can you imagine having 4 children removed? As I've said before on this thread. There is no support for parents who have children removed & it leads to so much harm & trauma.
I don't prescribe to the idea that people are evil, this is two damaged human beings, it's not good enough to say these are just bad people who are evil, this is what the newspaper trots out.
This is the product of years of being left down, repeated trauma, mental health, substance abuse none of which has been addressed.

Who said they were evil? And which reported facts do you dispute? "Only" from media sources (which come largely from police and trial reports)... What do you want me to say, that I had Constance round for a cup of tea and she told me all about it?

Sonora25 · 29/01/2024 20:32

Wintersonata · 28/01/2024 22:30

Surely drugs are involved though that hasn’t been mentioned.
They usually are when there’s this level of chaos.

I thought the same but they weren’t mentioned in trial at all yet. Doesn’t sound like they were high or buying drugs while they were on the run.

i am still so upset and shocked that someone with so much access to cash didn’t buy clothes for a newborn baby.

5thAstralPlane · 30/01/2024 00:22

Babymamamama · 25/01/2024 20:02

If Constance’s family/parents have so much resource ie cash at their disposal why on gods earth did they allow all of these children who are their own relatives into the care system? It’s so bizarre. What drugs were the couple on? If any? Were they in psychosis. Personality disordered?

Based on their appearance in the photos from the article, it is unfortunately somewhat obvious what the abused substance in question is. I would like to think that wasn't going on during the pregnancy but sadly, that looks unlikely...

lljkk · 30/01/2024 07:10

I have relatives who had children taken off them by social services.
One probably has FAS herself, both have substance abuse problems, and no money & chronic mental illness.

They are screwed up people but they worked their socks off to get their kids back, or at least get back in regular contact, to regain stability and demonstrate they could provide a decent home and be good parents after all.

I don't know of any evidence that CM.MG tried to do those things.

Everywomen · 30/01/2024 07:57

5thAstralPlane · 30/01/2024 00:22

Based on their appearance in the photos from the article, it is unfortunately somewhat obvious what the abused substance in question is. I would like to think that wasn't going on during the pregnancy but sadly, that looks unlikely...

Is it really possible to tell that from the pics? They’d essentially been living as homeless so were bound to look rough surely

Wintersonata · 30/01/2024 07:58

Based on their appearance in the photos from the article, it is unfortunately somewhat obvious what the abused substance in question is.

5thastral what is the abused substance?

Sonora25 · 30/01/2024 08:12

You can tell from grainy CCTV what substance they were allegedly on? Don’t believe that, all speculation. Nowhere has it been mentioned so far that they were/are addicts.

KarenNotAKaren · 30/01/2024 09:05

Yes we haven’t seen their mugshots from their arrest over Baby A yet - how can anyone tell what substance they were on?! In the mugshots/photos released in the media at the time they looked completely normal - which is why it was also so shocking that this was happening

RowanMayfair · 30/01/2024 09:26

Wintersonata · 30/01/2024 07:58

Based on their appearance in the photos from the article, it is unfortunately somewhat obvious what the abused substance in question is.

5thastral what is the abused substance?

I assume that poster means heroin? It's not unlikely but I would expect that to have been evident in Victoria's health post birth and also in the post-mortem if she was born with opiates in her system. A baby born addicted needs specialist care otherwise they can die. I know she did die but the evidence is she died of exposure.

Sonora25 · 30/01/2024 10:26

In the trial they discussed why the other children were take away. Reasons mentioned: parents were homeless, parents didn’t seek medical help, parent pretended to be a different person and lied about background, parents left baby at hospital, parents lived in a tent. Drug use or substance abuse was not mentioned (maybe for obvious reasons but have not seen it mentioned so far). Wouldn’t have baby A cried non stop if suffering withdrawal symptoms? Witnesses mention occasional crying.

RowanMayfair · 30/01/2024 11:08

Sonora25 · 30/01/2024 10:26

In the trial they discussed why the other children were take away. Reasons mentioned: parents were homeless, parents didn’t seek medical help, parent pretended to be a different person and lied about background, parents left baby at hospital, parents lived in a tent. Drug use or substance abuse was not mentioned (maybe for obvious reasons but have not seen it mentioned so far). Wouldn’t have baby A cried non stop if suffering withdrawal symptoms? Witnesses mention occasional crying.

Edited

Yes the baby would have been very poorly and crying a lot. That's not what has been described by witnesses.

GaroTheMushroom · 30/01/2024 17:41

Just seen a cctv picture of the baby that’s been released. How sad, dressed in just a baby grow in the middle of January. Not even a blanket whilst they are wrapped in warm coats. Don’t know how anyone can say they “get where they were coming from” notice that poster hasn’t been back to explain. Not like they didn’t have money, I would have taken the coat off my own back to keep my baby warm.

Wintersonata · 30/01/2024 17:45

Don’t know how anyone can say they “get where they were coming from” notice that poster hasn’t been back to explain.

I agree - not sure how anyone can justify that sort of neglect.

Parsley1234 · 30/01/2024 17:54

Quite shocking when you see the baby looks healthy and strong so sad with no appropriate clothes just a baby grow in a buggy with no blanket

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