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TheTwirlyPoos · 15/07/2025 10:50

Well yeah?

newnamethanks · 15/07/2025 10:52

There's little point in trying to understand their behaviour. It's like an addiction. Awful pair. Separating them is the only hope of saving future mutual children. I met someone with similar behaviour to CMs many years ago. Well educated from middle class professional family, she was in her 30s, mother to 6, 5 in care, 1 died as a baby. "That bloody hospital never gave me the death certificate". From which I gathered she had left the deceased baby with the hospital, not visited, not registered the death herself and not arranged a funeral for her. She was as entitled, intractable and deluded in her beliefs as CM, albeit without a current partner, and as convinced of the wrongness of The System and all its works as CM is. 99.9% of people would quickly walk away because, in most of our eyes, she was barking mad. But no, not mad, according to medical opinion. This was someone with an untreatable personality disorder and beyond medical help. Supremely depressing. I hope she didn't go on to have any more children but she was determined to do so. To "show them". Give your own children a thankful cuddle. These people are thankfully rare.

girlfriend44 · 15/07/2025 11:04

Supersimkin2 · 14/07/2025 23:42

The torturer should still be in prison, turns out. He got 40 years, let out early to meet CM & kill his kid.

The people who treated him said he’d move on to killing. Presumably CM is only alive by mistake; he tried to stop the ambulance reaching her after he threw her out of the window.

Marten’s interesting, but only cos you wonder how a human can turn so twisted and stay sane. She’ll be out in a few years.

Massive well done to SS for saving the other four children.

How sad though,
Wonder if they were all adopted together.

placemats · 15/07/2025 16:52

girlfriend44 · 15/07/2025 11:04

How sad though,
Wonder if they were all adopted together.

It does happen but only very rarely. Given the timeline of the children being immediately taken away, I would like to think that it was to the same foster family.

To add Mark Gordon was jailed for 20 weeks following attacks on female police officers in the martenity unit following the birth of his first child.

Supersimkin2 · 15/07/2025 17:04

Apparently, adopted separately as you would expect. 4 damaged DC too much for one couple, for a start.

Let alone the genetics in the post. Yikes.

The only plus from this horrible case is the public beginning to realise quite how charming people with personality disorders really are.

placemats · 15/07/2025 17:10

Supersimkin2 · 15/07/2025 17:04

Apparently, adopted separately as you would expect. 4 damaged DC too much for one couple, for a start.

Let alone the genetics in the post. Yikes.

The only plus from this horrible case is the public beginning to realise quite how charming people with personality disorders really are.

You can't say that. All adoptions were hidden. All surviving children never spent years with their parents.

girlfriend44 · 15/07/2025 17:57

placemats · 15/07/2025 16:52

It does happen but only very rarely. Given the timeline of the children being immediately taken away, I would like to think that it was to the same foster family.

To add Mark Gordon was jailed for 20 weeks following attacks on female police officers in the martenity unit following the birth of his first child.

Disgraceful.

soupfiend · 15/07/2025 19:29

Sako81 · 14/07/2025 23:02

I wasn’t disputing that she has prioritised him over her children and herself. Indeed, when they were arrested she, despite having given birth unaided, moving around constantly, carrying all their belongings, caring for an infant- was more concerned about HIM. Obviously he is her number one priority in this life and their children have all paid the price, the youngest- the ultimate price. It is sad that women do this, I don’t know what to call it- obsession? I don’t know. Hopefully they will both receive long prison sentences and she might actually snap out of it and realise what she’s done. I imagine the guilt would be crushing.
she’s obviously the mouthpiece in the relationship as she’s well educated and probably very eloquent and articulate, but I don’t think that would make her the dominant personality, especially if she’s also afraid of him like the courts surmised. She just can’t seem to understand that her life has been in freefall since she met him. Very sad. I hope the other four children have new families and are very loved and cared for.

I dont believe she is controlled or coerced any more than she controls and coerces him. To say that removes her agency and ability.

He may have been violent to her, she might have been violent to him, they're besotted with each other which leaves no room for anything else. They have a toxic relationship with both being equal partners in an unhealthy dynamic.

I think thats all there is to it.

placemats · 15/07/2025 19:45

soupfiend · 15/07/2025 19:29

I dont believe she is controlled or coerced any more than she controls and coerces him. To say that removes her agency and ability.

He may have been violent to her, she might have been violent to him, they're besotted with each other which leaves no room for anything else. They have a toxic relationship with both being equal partners in an unhealthy dynamic.

I think thats all there is to it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly89l990xyo
Perhaps this couple were in a toxic relationship?

Phoenix Spencer-Horn smiling directly at the camera. She has her head tilted to the right and has blonde hair, which drapes over her shoulder and sunglasses on top of her head. She is wearing a white shirt and is standing in front of a beach, trees and...

Phoenix Spencer-Horn: Man admits brutal murder of partner and cover-up bid

The body of Phoenix Spencer-Horn, 21, was discovered at her home in East Kilbride in November 2024.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly89l990xyo

placemats · 15/07/2025 19:45

ETA duplicate post

Atethehalloweenchocs · 15/07/2025 19:49

soupfiend · 15/07/2025 19:29

I dont believe she is controlled or coerced any more than she controls and coerces him. To say that removes her agency and ability.

He may have been violent to her, she might have been violent to him, they're besotted with each other which leaves no room for anything else. They have a toxic relationship with both being equal partners in an unhealthy dynamic.

I think thats all there is to it.

There is a concept in work with DA of primary aggressor - sometimes it is hard to tell who that is. And sometimes each partner is as bad as the other, so there is no primary. Sounds like this pair.

soupfiend · 15/07/2025 19:52

Atethehalloweenchocs · 15/07/2025 19:49

There is a concept in work with DA of primary aggressor - sometimes it is hard to tell who that is. And sometimes each partner is as bad as the other, so there is no primary. Sounds like this pair.

Absolutely.

placemats · 15/07/2025 20:08

placemats · 15/07/2025 19:45

ETA duplicate post

Edited

I was going to link to the Sky news twitter/X report on the murder of Phoenix but it made it out to be a loving relationship and and surely she had done something for him to murder her. And how disgusting is that?

Sako81 · 15/07/2025 21:53

Supersimkin2 · 15/07/2025 17:04

Apparently, adopted separately as you would expect. 4 damaged DC too much for one couple, for a start.

Let alone the genetics in the post. Yikes.

The only plus from this horrible case is the public beginning to realise quite how charming people with personality disorders really are.

I wonder why they didn’t let her grandfather take them as I read that he did try.

Atethehalloweenchocs · 15/07/2025 21:55

placemats · 15/07/2025 20:08

I was going to link to the Sky news twitter/X report on the murder of Phoenix but it made it out to be a loving relationship and and surely she had done something for him to murder her. And how disgusting is that?

Oh, god. That is so grim. The misogyny in the press is so depressing.

KrSussex · 16/07/2025 11:37

newnamethanks · 14/07/2025 20:06

Her mother is a psychotherapist. I find that concerning.

So Many Kids who are Messed up are the Kids of People who work in the System

placemats · 16/07/2025 15:28

Her mother is an evangelist which is even more disturbing.

Alltheyearround · 16/07/2025 20:46

It's a very disturbing story from beginning to end. Poor children, to get caught up in it. I also wondered why they just kept having children and not use contraception when they seem bound to be removed from their dubious care. Entitlement? Cocking a snook at authority? Belief in their ''true love'' to conquer all and have babies and smuggle them away. It does seem to happen a lot, chaotic relationship/environment, 'replacing' children taken into care.

I did wonder why there was a national alert all over the press though, Hardly seemed the subtlest way to deal with a couple of deranged and anti authority type people on the run with a newborn. Surely the police could have seen that it may drive them to acts of desperation? It must happen reasonably often that people abscond with children after SS involvement. Usually we only get warnings about dangerous escaped convicts.

I can't help thinking a slowly, slowly approach, with police forces quietly working within communities would have served Victoria's safety better. I see that there was a statement about reviewing how children at risk could be better protected should similar circs ever happen again. It was, to my mind, a strategic error which played badly with their known mindset.

This is not to downplay their responsibility. Ultimately they were responsible to keep a child warm and out of danger. Entirely possible she did fall asleep on top of Victoria, we will never know. I find it odd how they left her body, with rubbish in a bag, and didn't tell the police where she was when the 'game' was up. Deeply unsettling. Their behavior was odd in the extreme, the footage of the arrest and asking for food. They seemed at once needy, self obsessed and sort of numb to the horror of the situation.

Glad the other siblings are safe and cared for. No child deserves to be caught up in madness like this. Poor baby. She didn't know much comfort in her short life. No midwifery oversight on the pregnancy and birth either, anything could have happened to Victoria and/or Constance.

I think both CM and MG both equally unhinged and controlling. If only they hadn't crossed paths in the incense shop in Tottenham! Interesting that they trashed properties and left apparently without paying the rent. Chaotic/entitled.

I think the family pressure (private detectives?) and children being taken into care plus the 'man hunt' tipped two already wildly unstable people with entrenched views of the authorities in a toxic relationship over the edge in paranoia and into extreme actions. They obviously cast themselves as doomed lovers. Rather pathetic seeing the photo of them at the police station (BBC documentary last night).

I find it really hard to put myself in her shoes. On the one hand I can see how you would want to run away with your baby if you thought SS were going to take away yet another of your children (I can see why, but she might not have been able to grasp it), but also can't imagine repeatedly getting pregnant with this as a certainty esp when with the same man. Surely, surely, given how cold and wet it was that January, wouldn't you overcome the 'instinct' to keep possession of your newborn no matter what (and undoubtedly it is a strong urge especially when you have only recently given birth and are chock full of hormones) with the rational thought that if you went to the police, that baby would be at least be immediately warm and safe from harm? Also, from their point of view, why did they not go abroad when she was first aware she was pregnant or even before? Why leave it until the baby was born? Perhaps not great at thinking ahead? Just living moment to moment?

I'm not sure Victoria was considered in all this at all, only that she was a sort of prize not to be surrendered. The footage of her being manhandled into that buggy like a bag of spuds was heartbreaking. They showed scant regard for the other children, failing to turn up for visits, not mending their ways or separating even (i.e. with his conviction he was always going to be someone SS were rightly wary of) so she could bring the children up. Basically two rather selfish people. I feel a bit sorry for her, having all those babies removed from her, but she could have done things differently and chose not too, then she was in too deep to untangle the whole sorry mess. As someone said in the interview (friend she met when in cult/Nigeria), you feel sad for her but also just want to shake her!

I hope she gets some serious therapy inside. I can't think of her as irredeemably bad, just massively misguided and stupidly selfish despite all her brains. Not sure really what I can say about him, possibly the less the better.

Atethehalloweenchocs · 16/07/2025 20:53

I hope she gets some serious therapy inside. I can't think of her as irredeemably bad, just massively misguided and stupidly selfish despite all her brains. Not sure really what I can say about him, possibly the less the better.

There is no way therapy would help either of them. I am a big fan of therapy, but it does not solve everything, and these are too people with severe personality disorder, at the least.

Alltheyearround · 16/07/2025 20:57

I think the jury found correctly, it was the end point of many, many selfish decisions on their part. But I still think it could have been handled better in terms of finding them and rescuing baby Victoria alive. It was a risky strategy and I think it backfired by pushing them into a corner, i.e. buying a tent to try to get off the radar. Admittedly a difficult situation to handle for the best outcome.

Lunde · 16/07/2025 21:01

Alltheyearround · 16/07/2025 20:57

I think the jury found correctly, it was the end point of many, many selfish decisions on their part. But I still think it could have been handled better in terms of finding them and rescuing baby Victoria alive. It was a risky strategy and I think it backfired by pushing them into a corner, i.e. buying a tent to try to get off the radar. Admittedly a difficult situation to handle for the best outcome.

I'm really not sure what they could do. IIRC she concealed the pregnancy and got no antenatal care - so the first they knew of the 5th baby was when they found a placenta in the burnt out car and CM and MG were already running.

Alltheyearround · 16/07/2025 21:10

They could have chosen not to splash it all over the news. They could have just done detective work and try to locate them without the added drama and attendant risks? Maybe the police thought they'd catch up with them quicker than they did.

I don't know how you could sleep with someone once you know they were a violent rapist. That boggles the mind.

Alltheyearround · 16/07/2025 21:16

It's very unusual as a tactic. I mean families must abscond all the time where they want to try to evade SS, but we almost never hear about it. I know this was an extreme case with a concealed pregnancy etc. So just wondering why SS/police chose to use it in this case when dealing with two very paranoid and unstable people. It seems very high risk. But if they had gone the quiet route not involving nationwide publicity and Victoria had come to harm anyway - well it's tricky isn't it? High stakes - the life and safety of a child - whichever route you choose to try to locate them. Like I say, it does not absolve the couple from any responsibility. Just, an unusual approach, it struck me.

Alltheyearround · 16/07/2025 21:25

Atethehalloweenchocs · 16/07/2025 20:53

I hope she gets some serious therapy inside. I can't think of her as irredeemably bad, just massively misguided and stupidly selfish despite all her brains. Not sure really what I can say about him, possibly the less the better.

There is no way therapy would help either of them. I am a big fan of therapy, but it does not solve everything, and these are too people with severe personality disorder, at the least.

You are possibly right. I suppose I never want to give up hope. To change her mind about the circumstances of all her children but especially Victoria would be crushing, to admit you were responsible. Right now they are both shifting the blame, which is easier isn't it? What do you see as the hallmarks of PD?

Atethehalloweenchocs · 16/07/2025 21:45

The total lack of remorse, wildly different presentations day to day or even moment to moment (to the point where the comment was made in court that it was impossible to understand what her personality was like) and the extremely strange take on what was happening all make me sure it is PD, at least in Marten. The parenting thing, where they would be great with the kids when they showed up for visitation, but were completely unreliable and could not really offer an explanation of why. The complete inability to understand boundaries and proper behaviour (like repeatedly talking in court even when told to stop, and Marten asking the judge if she could pop out for coffee because she was tired). The incredible entitledness. The inconsistency.

I am not so sure about him. He could have anti social personality disorder, or be someone who grew up in an environment where it would have been hard not to to turn to crime. The victim he raped described him as a psychopath. I dont feel I know as much about what drives him - it could be as simple as him being a bad person who just doesnt give a fuck who he hurts. She sounds a lot smarter than he is and I would not be surprised if she is not the decision maker.

I want to be clear - I have worked with/had contact with several thousand people at this stage in my life (psychotherapist). This includes 10+ years in psychiatric hospitals and with forensic clients. I have not met many I did not think could be worked with, could probably count them on the fingers of one hand. But I did meet a few. One was a fairly young man who scared me more than I have ever been scared - and all he did was say hello in the hallway. But there was something in his demeanor. The only way I can describe it was that my blood ran cold. The staff were all talking about it and trying to put our finger on what we were reacting to and none of us could tell you anything concrete. But we all felt it. If you think that most communication is non verbal, and is my primitive brain talking to yours, I think we obviously were reading some signs that we could not consciously describe.

This pair strike me in the same way. Therapy can be life changing. But you have to want to change your life - and this pair just seem to be stuck in the delusion that the world should bend to them.

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