Constance Marten & Mark Gordon - Baby A case

[SportMum1982]

What have I just read? What the actual fuck is wrong with the world. That poor baby. These utter idiots. Sorry I’m so so angry.

Constance Marten and partner ‘killed baby to keep her out of care’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/24e56090-f175-4bf8-ac07-380621d9954f?shareToken=186074e86c05c4df704ef1889186acdc

The CCTV footage is really upsetting - you can clearly see the baby being hauled out of something before being put in the pushchair and covered up. There was zero head support whatsoever, her poor head flopping right the way back.

I think it's especially prominent when you compare an earlier photo of Mark to the one in the article. Doesn't look like he simply aged. But maybe I am wrong...

The CCTV is truly upsetting with the newborn baby just being hauled about and literally stuffed into a a sitting position in an unpadded buggy without anyone supporting her head. Poor little mite just dressed in a babygrow, no hat or blanket even outdoors, in freezing January weather while the parents are bundled up in winter jackets and hoods.

You cant tell from those photos if they are on substance or what they are if they are. Heroin normally gives you an extremely gaunt, haunted look, people lose their teeth quite often, lots of scabs and sores.

She doesnt even hold the baby safely, head flopping all over the place. A minor issue in the bigger scheme of things I know.

Seeing that CCTV made me so sad. Poor baby. I so wish they would have found them sooner. What an sad short life for that poor baby girl.

That poor little baby. 😞 She never stood a chance.

Chilling, poor baby

That poor baby was handled like a sack of potatoes. I found that video really upsetting to watch.

They trashed a holiday rental they'd Been living in.

Don't understand why they needed to keep having babies?
4 taken into care, why have them? Contraception?

Can anyone suggest why Constance Marten isn't in court? Is it a choice? Or is she unwell? Will she have to appear to answer the prosecution's questions?

Needed? No, they probably wanted to have this baby. Or perhaps she wasn't planned but they were too chaotic to prevent a pregnancy. They likely don't accept or understand why the older children were removed so may well have thought they would be fine with this baby if they could keep her secret. They aren't living the same reality that you or I are really.

You cant force someone to attend their own trial. There was lots of threads about this in the Lucy Letby case.

Somehow I get a sense he is more 'human' than she is, just from some of his reactions and seeing their movements on the CCTV. Snap judgement yes.

I dont think the PP saying she 'gets it' means understanding or condoning the treatment of this poor baby - more understanding why people who have had children removed have more and try to keep them at all costs. Losing a child in this way is traumatic even if is the right thing to do, and the mothers in particular are left with a lot of grief which there is very little support for.

I once had to accompany a colleague in safeguarding to remove a baby. She had removed the mother from her own mother and knew that she would melt down when she saw us so wanted me to be the one who actually took the baby. It was horrific. The mother and father clearly loved their baby (I also got called on to supervise some visits later on and they actually seemed to take to me). But the baby had a whole bunch of health problems from neglect, including skin breakdown from being left in wet nappies and the clear potential for life altering problems if things continued as they were. The parents had been offered all kinds of social and medical support but rejected it all. What was really clear was neither of them accepted they had done anything wrong and I have no doubt they went on to have more children. It was so sad. And I know the protocol was that the more children you have removed, the more likely the next will be removed at birth.

The man held its head as it went into the buggy but she didn't as baby was placed.
Again in the scheme of things small details but the buggy had no padding so when they put the baby in it would have just gone into cold hard buggy back with that cover over it.

@Atethehalloweenchocs
I don't understand, what does love mean when the baby was neglected like that? And they reject all help.

So confusing this case. He seemed to come from an awful background. Committed a terrible crime as a child then locked away in an adult prison for 20 years, but she had everything, a fantastic life of fun and freedom, good looks and seemingly intelligent, many friends . How did they get together and on earth did she fall so far?

Good question @PlumberORTiler. They clearly wanted to be parents and were deeply distressed by not having their baby with them. They could play with her and in their interactions they looked like loving parents. And she always responded very positively to them - she was a happy little thing. But they just could not change what they were doing or accept it was not good enough. It was like a 'does not compute'. They took the baby to the doctor and that office called us when they saw how bad things were. They heard the call being made and fled and we had to track them down and remove her, so police involvement etc etc. From their perspective, I guess they might think that when they tried to do the right thing, the 'system' got them. And I am sure that may have made them more likely to try and go under the radar in future. I had never been so involved with a family like that before, as I was not officially in the safeguarding team, just covering shifts. But they were not what I would have expected and I felt very sad for all of them. Even though it was 100% right she was removed.

The vast majority of neglectful and poor parents do love their kids, genuinely but they dont understand or comprehend what children need so they cant meet their needs.

Poor parenting doesnt mean a hatred or dislike for the child, they just arent very good at it and dont learn or make changes to make things better (because they dont understand what is 'better') and no amount of teaching, support, role modelling can help them change

Lots of parents do change and their children stay with them though.

I read in one of the reports earlier this week that she had refused to attend court and that they had also made a video link available to her that she had also refused to attend. I don't know whether it makes any difference but on the early court appearances she had sat next to Mark Gordon and, it was commented in press reports, that she had chatted/giggled with him. But from last week, when the full trial started, a prison officer was placed between them on the first day. So I don't know if not being able to speak to him contributed to her refusal to attend.

If the defence calls her to give evidence in her own defence she can be cross examined by the Prosecution. The Defence argument, from opening statements, is that baby Victoria died from unknown causes and that she was not neglected at all by the defendants - on the contrary she was warm, well fed and dry. The prosecution is currently using 3rd party evidence to demonstrate neglect.

Constance Marten has gone to court in person today. It has been reported by The Argos (which has a live feed) that she and her co-accused, Mark Gordon have spent much of the time in court whispering to each other again.

What did I just read? it doesn't seem there's anything to blame on the mum's upbringing

What do you know about the mum’s upbringing to make this statement? Surely it’s not simply the fact that her family was wealthy? Dear god, I want whatever you’re taking to have such a simplistic view of life.

Would you say the parents considered love to be a feeling they experienced, and the baby reflected a feeling of 'love' back to them (almost like an interactive toy)? But they couldn't do the verb 'to love' - which involves an appreciation of the reality of the baby's nature (and needs) and a great deal of thankless work?

This is awful. I've been following the podcast covering the trials and it's heartbreaking to think that tiny baby should still be alive. RIP Victoria

@BritneyBookClubPresident what is the podcast, please?