Constance Marten & Mark Gordon - Baby A case

[SportMum1982]

What have I just read? What the actual fuck is wrong with the world. That poor baby. These utter idiots. Sorry I’m so so angry.

Constance Marten and partner ‘killed baby to keep her out of care’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/24e56090-f175-4bf8-ac07-380621d9954f?shareToken=186074e86c05c4df704ef1889186acdc

I often deal with social services re:children in care- I rarely come across cases where they have bern taken into care with the birth parents' low IQ being a factor. I can only think of one, ever. They are almost always neglect, abuse, factors like addiction(alcohol or drugs), or safety.

These children could of also been taken as he was a rapist who spent time in prison in America.

Yes, when he was a teenager. It's not likely that was particularly a factor if there hadn't been anything since that date. The couple clearly didn't understand what children need to thrive. It's far more likely they were seriously neglecting the older 4.

I am a social worker and have been for 10 years in children's social care. I said last year that something was not being shared about why they were pursuing them with such vigour. In my field, it is quite common for as many as children to be removed and it would never be about his past convictions (would not necessitate removal) likely extreme neglect, physical abuse, domestic abuse, substance and often emotional abuse. Unfortunately, at times, there is no rationale as to why parents do this but these kind of parental murders are happening so regularly and it is difficult to stop as there are evil people. I have known parents to conceal pregnancies and now I know more about the removal yesterday, the more their behaviour makes sense. I did wonder when they were missing, why they would be okay living out in the cold, etc. Sometimes parents who loose all of their children then become more entrenched in their drug, alcohol abuse and sometimes do not have a place to sleep as the money they are getting is going on drugs. I feel heartbroken for this poor child and all of them taken in this way.

Does it really matter if they 'tried' to keep her alive. The common mention so far at trial is the cold weather. Trying to keep a baby alive in January February with no proper clothing is not trying to keep her alive! Putting her in a bag for life is not trying to keep her alive! So people trying to find solace in the fact that they tried is utterly appalling. Trying would be using the money they had to buy clothes for her and proper shelter. They were on the run to try and avoid getting caught this was not trying!

It's hard to understand the thought process between having babies removed and wanting to keep this one. Ok that part makes sense but wouldn't they be wanting to go over board on care for this one to prove what amazing parents they are?
I can't reconcile the sense of going to all these lengths to keep this baby and treating it so incredibly badly and neglectfully.

Who is trying to find solace?

To have had the older children permanently removed they must have severely neglected them. If they understood what they had done wrong they likely wouldn't have neglected them to that extent in the first place. If having children removed was enough to change people's parenting it would never happen more than once to anyone

I think the average layman does not appreciate the things that some parents do/dont do and they try to rationalise it to feel that a parent cannot be that bad, cannot have tried to harm, cannot have caused that harm, didnt mean it

Its frightening I suppose to believe that not all children are protected and loved in the way someone might think is the standard right way

So some people do try to find solace as it were by rationalising that 'well they didnt mean to kill her or they tried to care'

posted too soon

Or that it must be MH issues, or it must be because she is 'vulnerable' or coercive control or because he was a rapist at 14.

Its difficult to comprehend that 2 people with no real reason, acted this way

@soupfiend I think that maybe you, and some others who have posted similar, are misunderstanding what other people (mainly professionals with training, qualifications and experience) mean when they mention, for example, MH issues or what women in CM’s position do in their heads to rationalise what they have done to their children.

You can’t dismiss trauma or other MH or drug dependency issues as being important factors in this story. Understanding what leads to this dreadful story is absolutely not at all to do with excusing it whatsoever. I think I can be certain in saying that everyone posting here thinks what CM did was 100 percent wicked and that she should be punished. And at the same time, it’s absolutely essential that we try to understand how these situations happen because, like it or not, this has happened since the beginning of time and within every type of family. Simply screaming MONSTER does nothing to get to the bottom of how and why it happens.

Women who serially abandon children or have to have them removed have often suffered an original trauma. This is in no way at all an excuse or argument for lesser punishment. It’s a simple fact which has been established by a large number of proper actual studies by experts. Newspaper headlines choose not to delve into these realities. It’s easier to scream monster! From a headline. The original trauma often comes from the first removal. If families and professionals had training, support and funds to prevent these first traumas then we would see far fewer of these cases.

Women who serially abandon children or have to have them removed have often suffered an original trauma.

I have no doubt this is true, but should not the father take responsibility too?

Some people can just be evil their evidence of mental.illness ?
I.assume they will. Have had a full.mental health assessment.

Hmm. Ok, well my training, qualifications and experience (31 years and counting) as a qualified professional in this area tells me I do know, just a little about these things too.

I was referring to the other posters view about people taking 'solace' or trying to rationalise why parents act this way, its often to protect their own feelings about why people can harm children so abhorrently. Its normal, but I was explaining it.

100% this, we do need to look at what we are all doing to allow this sort of thing to happen repeatedly - and we are all responsible. It makes no sense to blame and get angry when a child dies, the damage has happened, years ago, I still remember the trauma I saw as a young child, (to another child) and wonder why people were surprised when that young child ended up in prison himself repeatedly, drugs, violence etc -, because when he was a child, no one was listening, no one was looking & no one really cared enough, and it hasn't changed, systems have, but the ineptitude around children, harm and trauma hasn't. And damaged children grow into damaged adults.
And so the cycles repeat.
Don't also fall into the trap that just because this woman had a wealthy background that it was free from trauma or that this man didn't have an equally difficult back story, which we will never know I am sure. I still remember as a social worker, explaining to a doctor why it wasn't ok to lock their 2 year old under the stairs as a punishment & to a nursery worker why it wasn't recommended to beat her child with a horsewhip. Seriously, class, education has nothing to do with anything.

@RowanMayfair

True but not many parents go to these lengths to conceal a new pregnancy and go on the run to keep the child. To go to all these lengths one would think they would try and care for it.

Try harder...

Obviously I realise there must be serious barriers to them realising this.

@soupfiend your expertise is fascinating, pls don’t be put off posting!

Different opinions are healthy, surely.

What sort of initial trauma are we talking about when it comes to mothers with removed children?

God, I admire social workers.

Usually childhood trauma. Neglect, sexual harm and domestic violence. This is then compounded by a series of domestically violent relationships often characterised by addiction in one or both parents and the cycle perpetuates.

@RowanMayfair some posts on this thread.

@RowanMayfair

@soupfiend post is an example.

I am a social worker and have been for 10 years in children's social care. I said last year that something was not being shared about why they were pursuing them with such vigour. In my field, it is quite common for as many as children to be removed and it would never be about his past convictions (would not necessitate removal) likely extreme neglect, physical abuse, domestic abuse, substance and often emotional abuse. Unfortunately, at times, there is no rationale as to why parents do this but these kind of parental murders are happening so regularly and it is difficult to stop as there are evil people. I have known parents to conceal pregnancies and now I know more about the removal yesterday, the more their behaviour makes sense. I did wonder when they were missing, why they would be okay living out in the cold, etc. Sometimes parents who loose all of their children then become more entrenched in their drug, alcohol abuse and sometimes do not have a place to sleep as the money they are getting is going on drugs. I feel heartbroken for this poor child and all of them taken in this way.

With that many children removed they would not have had a chance to look after the baby, it would have been taken into care and we do not know if their previous children there was a risk of physical abuse.

This!! People are so quick to condemn but I cannot imagine the pain of having four babies taken into care. I can only assume this woman was very unwell. That her perception of reality was skewed and hampered by her Co defendant.

There was no evidence that they purposely hurt the baby. They wanted that child. They were sorely misguided in their thinking but they never meant for what happened. This wasn't something they shrugged off. Any subsequent behaviour is nothing more than a manifestation of the different ways people cope with loss.

She's clearly not in her right mind.

Anyone who knows the first thing about children's social care services knows that the focus has to be on the child. Not the parents possibly abused background, not their addiction or MH issues, the child. This especially applies in the case of a newborn whose siblings have already been taken in to care for reasons we can all guess at, as that baby was utterly defenceless and the history indicated there would be a lack of care.

This situation is magnified when the parent/s do not appear to have any kind of learning disability and have ample access to funds. They did not however have the mental wiring to put the needs of their baby (healthcare, warmth) before their need to hang on to it at all costs, like a possession, hence this tragedy.

Sometimes parents can change & I've seen this even after some have been removed. We can't suggest that people don''t change or can't just because children have been removed. The big issue is that there's absolutely no support for parents who fo have children removed, which is so hugely traumatic, full of shame & I cannot imagine how anyone could move on especially without targeted support.
I stand by the theory that having children removed perpetuates so much damage & harm to all involved & while I recognise that sometimes this is necessary, it's no surprise that once this happens, the pattern could repeat & the harm cycle continues .

I remember at the time people were supporting them fleeing from what they speculated to be evil racist social services, just a couple of first time parents victim to knee jerk overbearing authorities.

Well, wonder what those people think now.

I mean the fact they could spunk £500 a pop on taxis but that poor baby didn’t have warm clothing speaks volume.