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Wizzywoo18 · 18/03/2024 14:24

The Total Crime twitter account said on Friday 15th March; 'There have been some legal issues with the Constance Marten trial which we cannot enlarge upon'. Apparently the court sat but without the jury in attendance.

It also posted a short video of a small protest outside the Old Bailey in support of CM by an organisation called 'Support not Separation'.

This from their website:
https://supportnotseparation.blog/2024/03/15/we-support-constance-marten-hands-off-our-children-children-need-their-mothers/

We support Constance Marten.Hands off our children! Children need their mothers.

We’re outside the Old Bailey on Friday 15 March as mothers supporting Constance Marten because many of us have experienced the brutality of the family courts which steal our children.  Over 82,000 …

https://supportnotseparation.blog/2024/03/15/we-support-constance-marten-hands-off-our-children-children-need-their-mothers

Movinghouseatlast · 18/03/2024 14:53

Has this organisation not read the evidence or seen the footage of the baby being put into a buggy with no blanket or warm clothes?!

RowanMayfair · 18/03/2024 15:03

Movinghouseatlast · 18/03/2024 14:53

Has this organisation not read the evidence or seen the footage of the baby being put into a buggy with no blanket or warm clothes?!

Some people will never accept that children should be removed from their mothers/parents despite any evidence to the contrary. Ian Joseph and John hemming as referenced by the prosecution are two such.

NigelHarmansNewWife · 18/03/2024 15:11

Proceedings in court without the jury present are often on points of law or around whether information is submissible as evidence.

Happened on a case I was on the jury for and resulted in two charges being removed from the indictment.

newnamethanks · 18/03/2024 15:19

I was once a witness in a case. Waiting outside the court room, another witness came in. We knew one another and exchanged greetings. Prosecution spotted this exchange, trial halted, jury out, 2 hours of he and I being examined by judge to establish whether we'd discussed the case. Neither of us were familiar with court proceedings and had to have the obvious pointed out to us. No collaboration between witnesses. Trial resumed following day.

MaybeBabynotsure · 18/03/2024 16:27

Movinghouseatlast · 18/03/2024 14:53

Has this organisation not read the evidence or seen the footage of the baby being put into a buggy with no blanket or warm clothes?!

To me that is the one thing that makes it obvious she was just against the system no matter what rather than truly believing her baby should be with her as if the video had shown a baby wrapped up warm ypu
could believe that she wanted to keep her safe. Any other m caring parent would have had their own coat over the baby in that situation

Andthereyougo · 18/03/2024 16:59

So the trial is halted for a week. CM and MJ remanded in separate prisons?
Can they speak to each other on the phone?

RowanMayfair · 18/03/2024 17:34

Andthereyougo · 18/03/2024 16:59

So the trial is halted for a week. CM and MJ remanded in separate prisons?
Can they speak to each other on the phone?

Has she finished her evidence? If not, she won't be allowed to talk to him or anyone about the trial

Andthereyougo · 18/03/2024 18:38

@RowanMayfair Thanks. I thought that was the case but wasn’t sure.

ForSereneSwan · 18/03/2024 19:59

Wow, it is getting very drawn out.

Wizzywoo18 · 19/03/2024 13:14

According to CourtNewsUK on twitter today; 'Constance Marten trial is not sitting this week. Only Monday and Tuesday next week. Not sitting at all the week after that. Back on April 8.'

ScrabbleUnoDobble · 19/03/2024 14:46

The judge is on holiday.

Supersimkin2 · 19/03/2024 15:04

Fair enough, no one could have guessed the spinout on this.

ScrabbleUnoDobble · 19/03/2024 15:11

It was expected to finish on the 8th March, but there's been quite a few delays like CM changing her barrister a few times, plus the fire at the Old Bailey. I guess they originally thought it would definitely be finished before his holiday started.

I'm sure CM & MG don't mind the delay though, preferable to be in prison on remand than in prison proper!

Tigresswoods · 26/03/2024 06:01

I've just seen the trail continued for one day yesterday & CM has now finished giving evidence.

Lunde · 26/03/2024 22:55

Is this trial ever going to end? Court has now broken up until April 8th!

karenR1662 · 03/04/2024 10:16

Maybe trying to desensitize the Jury !!!! Lets hope for the sake of the baby they go Back though the evidence and reshow the baby in the Rubbish bag also CMs reaction to how baby didnt die because of Cold and Jesus was born in a barn so we are just being Judgemental western views which is acceptable in other cultures .I really hope this baby gets Justice and If SS had have taken her Like her siblings she Might still be alive

Elleherd · 03/04/2024 11:10

I'm sorry, but 'justice' is meaningless to the baby. It undoes and ameliorates nothing that she experienced or was taken from her.

It is society that seeks 'justice' because we can do nothing to change what happened to her, only hope that what happens to the parents and how the law and society views their specific behaviors and attitudes and failure to recognize and center their babies actual needs during attempting to flee with her, makes others question their own decisions and beliefs of what constitutes good enough in difficult circumstances, no matter how they come to be.

RowanMayfair · 03/04/2024 11:19

The cot death specialist was a wet lettuce I thought. I really want the prosecutor to ask WHY sleeping in a tent with a baby in January wouldn't be advisable if there is no evidence it's actually dangerous!

He also refused to be drawn on the safe co sleeping guidelines and the fact that the position Victoria was reported to be in is against all of them. Prone position, under a coat, with face covered, not visible to the parent and with mother hunched over is all the ways for a baby to die!

GrandKarber · 03/04/2024 11:28

They can’t prove cause of death. Only that she died.

And the charge is for gross negligence manslaughter so they have to show that CM knew what she was doing was negligent and her argument was that it might not be ideal but it’s not negligent.

And they can’t take into account the reasons the older ones were taken into care because that’s also not what this case is about, but CM went on about it during her testimony to demonstrate how desperate they were to keep the baby and that the others shouldn’t have been removed anyway.

I think she’s crackers with a massively distorted world view, and her decision making is shocking. But I also think she thought she was doing the right thing in the circumstances and therefore wasn’t negligent as far as the law goes.

RowanMayfair · 03/04/2024 11:41

GrandKarber · 03/04/2024 11:28

They can’t prove cause of death. Only that she died.

And the charge is for gross negligence manslaughter so they have to show that CM knew what she was doing was negligent and her argument was that it might not be ideal but it’s not negligent.

And they can’t take into account the reasons the older ones were taken into care because that’s also not what this case is about, but CM went on about it during her testimony to demonstrate how desperate they were to keep the baby and that the others shouldn’t have been removed anyway.

I think she’s crackers with a massively distorted world view, and her decision making is shocking. But I also think she thought she was doing the right thing in the circumstances and therefore wasn’t negligent as far as the law goes.

But they did know what they were doing is negligent. They were told several times about safe co sleeping and they were told that they couldn't have a newborn living in a tent. They may not have believed what they were told but they did know it and as a result Victoria is dead. I think they are bang to rights.

Elleherd · 03/04/2024 13:34

GrandKarber · 03/04/2024 11:28

They can’t prove cause of death. Only that she died.

And the charge is for gross negligence manslaughter so they have to show that CM knew what she was doing was negligent and her argument was that it might not be ideal but it’s not negligent.

And they can’t take into account the reasons the older ones were taken into care because that’s also not what this case is about, but CM went on about it during her testimony to demonstrate how desperate they were to keep the baby and that the others shouldn’t have been removed anyway.

I think she’s crackers with a massively distorted world view, and her decision making is shocking. But I also think she thought she was doing the right thing in the circumstances and therefore wasn’t negligent as far as the law goes.

It can be argued they made sure proof of how she died would be impossible to detect by keeping her body in the specific manner they did.

CM knows exactly what she is doing with the 'arrogant statements' about care and welfare as her defence for both of them and imo is talking up a storm to try and provide evidence of one set of behaviors rather than another.*

I suspect he's not on the stand because there's no birth certificate so unless they're married he legally never had PR, plus he'd be unlikely to be able to maintain the line she's taking.

She had automatic 'parental responsibility' by virtue of being the mother, and sought (understandably enough whether folk like it or not) to prevent a legal attempt at removing it. But in the meantime while she was doing that:

She failed to: safeguard her babies health and welfare in a way appropriate to a new born baby, or provide her with a home.
I have plentiful experience of raising children in very adverse circumstances and the amount of work that has to go into it to meet their needs. There's little sign of it at the time, just attempting to say it wasn't needed afterwards.

*Centering the child's needs across a range of issues, is what separates out the desperate doing their best for their child/ren with whatever they have, versus the desperate doing with whatever they have, what suits them best regardless of the effects on the child/ren.

The provide a home is* *failed, (SW may argue here) not because the home provided was a tent, but the type of tent and its suitability to constitute a home for a newborn baby in the conditions faced, (climate, foreseeable weather and temperatures, placement, lack of ground sheeting, insulation sheeting, pooling water, damp, heating devices to offset, damp, use of survival blankets etc, etc, and failure to mitigate the majority of the issues of cold weather shelter living, especially for a newborn. She'd already been challenged over flimsy tents as being suitable homes for babies.

'I kept the baby under my coat, changed her in a sleeping bag' isn't good enough 'provision of care for a newborn baby' and the visual evidence with the handling in the stroller and lack of clothing, padding etc, is further evidence not of a 'confident mother' but a 'whatever I do is automatically good enough in my opinion' mother. Claiming to be a 'confident mother' is laying claim to having knowledge and acting on it. She tripped herself up there imo.

Most negligence in most situations comes down to arrogance, lack of genuine care, and failing to have foresight in situations that have already had dangers highlighted, and most reasonable people could foresee issues arising.

GrandKarber · 03/04/2024 14:13

@Elleherd

Excellent post.

Motherofasmallpony · 03/04/2024 14:35

An awful lot of speculation and judgement in this thread. It’s an absolutely tragic case in so many ways 😔

PomsRun · 03/04/2024 15:58

Tragic for the baby and the other children/ wider family - yes.
For the people involved, the poor people who found Victoria, police, pathology, legal teams, jury - it must be horrific.

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