Nottingham attacks - verdict

[DrunkenElephant]

I live in Nottingham and feel terribly sad reading the news today.

Could these deaths have been avoided if the police and mental health agencies had done more? But then how can more be done when services are on their knees?

I don’t know the answer to either question, but my hearts go out to the families of Barnaby, Grace and Ian.

It's desperately sad to think that these tragic deaths could have been prevented.

As you say, services are on their knees so you can see how people end up slipping through the net.

I feel so very sorry for the families of Grace, Barnaby and Ian. They deserved so much better.

My DS is at Nottingham University.It could have been him. I am also very angry and sad for the parents. Yes it absolutely could have been prevented! There was a warrant out for his arrest after he attacked a policeman . I also think he should have faced a murder plea not manslaughter.
I think anyone who is dangerous and doesn’t take their medication for severe mental illness should not be allowed on the streets.
Also blame the Tories for our services getting in such a state.

@kerstina I agree with a lot of what you’ve said.

However if he had been arrested, would he have been jailed? Or would he have been passed back to mental health services, refused to engage or been discharged and the outcome remain the same?

It really is frightening that the safety net that should protect us really doesn’t exist anymore. Services so stretched that there aren’t enough police or mental health services and this is the outcome. It should never have happened.

The thing is that seriously mentally ill people can't be trusted to reliably take their medication. The killer in this instance is also a victim, he's a victim of completely failing mental health care. People this unwell need to be heavily supported and monitored in society to make sure they are engaging in treatment and taking the medication and are safe and behaving safely etc and this is not happening. Futhermore if someone is then deemed to be unsafe they should be able to he detained under the mental health act into a supportive hospital environment, not just discharged back because there are no beds or sent off into one of the highly traumatic and often abusive mental health inpatient facilities. I don't know anyone that has spent time under a section that hasn't got trauma from how they were treated under section. It's a complete mess. He will now as a result will probably spend the rest of his life in hospital and if he ever does have his schizophrenia managed he'll now have a boat load of trauma on top.

Manslaughter was the correct charge regardless of people's emotions about it. This wasn't a premeditated attack planned by someone with capacity. It was conducted by someone very unwell with diminished responsibility. Slapping on a murder charge when it doesn't meet the criteria of murder because people feel strong feelings about it isn't appropriate.

This is a very sad case of society completely failing mentally ill people that has sadly extended to having horrendous consequences for others, creating more trauma and more people in need of mental health care they can't get. How many of the friends and family of the victims not find themself needed to access mental health treatment that doesn't exist?

It's just a sad mess.

I think anyone who is dangerous and doesn’t take their medication for severe mental illness should not be allowed on the streets.

I agree for people such as this who evidently needed mental healthcare provision beyond a prescription they should have access to it. I know that's not what you mean by that statement but ignorant around MH is a big problem.

It is hugely tragic for the families of those lost, just a terrible and heartbreaking example of the human cost of cutting public services.

Agree. My dd is in her 3rd year at Nottingham and lives on the street where Grace and Barnaby were murdered. (Note - I’m still saying murdered, as that’s what happened). It’s just absolutely horrendous and the mental health of the country as a whole is completely on its knees.

I have been sectioned with severe anxiety and depression in the past so I do understand where you are coming from but I think there is a distinction between those that self harm and others who harm others whether they have psychosis or not. I am also very interested to know what this man’s story is .Did he have mental illness as a child , when did it start , what happened in his life to make him worse.

However if he had been arrested, would he have been jailed?

Probably been bailed, even if it went to trial if he did go to jail it wouldn't be for long.

@Universalsnail I agree with every word you’ve written.

I was present when two people were detained under the mental health act, separate occasions, due to my job. Not only was there a long wait for a bed, both were discharged within days. One young man went on to stab someone who thankfully survived. Schizophrenia is a horrific illness. I’ve seen it first hand.

Yes. My Mum had schizophrenia and tried to stab my Dad to death with a fork. Unfortunately I witnessed it all aged 4. She was sectioned and then let out and then sectioned again over and over, my whole childhood was her being sectioned and let out. Thankfully she was never violent again but living with her was scary, she was so unpredictable. She would often refuse to take her medication as it made her feel so zoned out.

It is an extremely sad case for everyone and sadly too common. My friend was randomly attacked last year on her way to work by a person with paranoid schizophrenia. She was beaten to a pulp, facial fractures, dental work, surgery to her eyes etc. Her life has been destroyed. It puts the living fear of god into us all that these people are roaming the streets. Agree with what so many others have said, there needs to be better monitoring and MH treatment.

But then how can more be done when services are on their knees?

You see, I don't buy into this.

So, public services are tight, they are on their knees, I agree. So what do you do here, you prioritise. Certain situations unfortunately become less of a priority. More serious cases become more of a priority. This guy had a list of incidents as long as your arm. One of them included him attempting to attack a student and as a result she jumped out of a window to escape him, and had serious injuries. Yet the uni, police etc. did nothing.

So, if they are not dealing with things like this, just exactly how are they spending their time? They are doing something? What exactly is that?

I think the answer is, that they are just incompetent and they are more concerned with looking bad or damaging their reputation by dealing with him appropriately and as a result 3 people are now dead.

As for the murderer. I can see why it has gone down the manslaughter route. Not that I agree with it, but I don't think he would have been found guilty as he has documented MH issues.

He should be locked up forever, in a psychiatric prison and never let out as he is very much a danger to the public.

Lifelong Nottingham resident. Very sad. Yes, the police absolutely could have done more and they have made a statement as such on their facebook page.

I live round the corner from er from where the attacks happened. I'm not really sure how I feel about it. Due to the duration of the attacks, and that he walked halfway across the city in between them. I find it difficult to believe he didn't know what he was doing. And he is unlikely to be ever released.

IMHO, if he consciously didn't take medicine (I don't know if he did), it should be treated as a murder. Same as drunk/on high people committing crime

There is another case in Norwich at the moment where a man stabbed his whole family to death and then committed suicide. He was given a mental health assessment a few weeks before it happened and was deemed not a risk to anyone so released. The day of the attacks he made a 999 call to the police saying he was in crisis and the police chose not to attend (they are being investigated for this) and an hour later they were all dead. (Member of the public called 999 and the police then attended). If the police knew he had mental health difficulties they absolutely should have attended to that first 999 call. What on earth is happening to our country?

I’m so sorry for your friend. Horrendous.

He probably did know what he was doing, but not that what he was doing was wrong, nor that what what he was doing wasn't justified. For example my friend had severe psychosis and thought that everyone was poisoning his drinks and trying to kill him, he started getting auditory hallucinations telling him that we were all trying to hurt him and was lieing to us. Another friend is schizophrenic and has had a few cases where he has ended up sectioned because he has stopped taking medication and then started to believe like really believe he was the Messiah, one time he walked out in front of traffic thinking the traffic would run through him as he was invincible as he was the Messiah. He knew what he was doing when he did this, but it's his reasoning that was unwell.

Psychosis can be difficult to understand if you haven't experienced it.

That is exactly what the judge has sentenced him too. Have you not read the verdict and sentence?

I get that he was not of sound mind when he set off on his killing spree. But why does that mean the charge is only manslaughter? Why can't it still be murder whilst not of sound mind? Whatever the reasons, he bought a knife and set off looking for people to kill, which he did. Surely that's murder?

The cctv of Grace and Barnaby walking back after their night out is simply agonising to watch when you know what is about to happen. I can't begin to imagine the hell their families are going through.

@Toddlerteaplease I agree with you. I know Nottingham very well and the fact he took the van into the very centre of town where he knew there would be people commenting to work at that time in the morning says to me he knew exactly what he was doing so he could cause maximum harm. My heart goes out to the families affected their lives have been forever ruined by that evil monster

You have to be of sound mind to commit murder, i.e. know what you are doing. Someone with a severe mental illness might do all those actions you say but he is not making a rational decision.

The cctv of them walking back is just heartbreaking. Such an utterly senseless thing to happen to everyone involved. It really makes your heart hurt.

@Cudz yes and it would have taken about an hour to walk from Lenton, to Magdala Road. I don't recall any body seeing him
Acting oddly en route. So he must have been calm. There would have been people around at that time, especially on Ilkeston Road.

Antipsychotics often have a whole heep of side effects that make people really physically unwell or cognitively impaired etc. It's not uncommon for people on them to still get psychotic symptoms and become convinced they are being deliberately harmed by medical professionals with the medicines. It's also not uncommon for people to take them, get well and then really really believe they don't need to take them anymore and are suffering the side effects for no reason and would be fine with out them.

It's just not as simple as seeing people as responsible and culpable if they stop taking anti-psychotic medicine.