Nottingham attacks - verdict

[DrunkenElephant]

I live in Nottingham and feel terribly sad reading the news today.

Could these deaths have been avoided if the police and mental health agencies had done more? But then how can more be done when services are on their knees?

I don’t know the answer to either question, but my hearts go out to the families of Barnaby, Grace and Ian.

@EasternStandard I believe it should mean exactly that. But then we’re right back in the lack of beds/lack of services circle.

Yes it would be very costly for decades, I’m guessing it would be a place that is different to where he is going now but still long term and accounted for

Maybe more freedoms but with staff aware and accountable

If it had happened before the crimes I mean

Personally I don't think we should ever be charging people with the wrong crime then they commited because that crime name is more palatable to society.

What a disgrace to not charge him with murder as that’s what he did. He got charged with attempted murder for ramming people with a van so why not charge him with murder for actually murdering? Right with the families on this. Mental illness should not be an excuse to diminish the way a crime is judged. The system is a disgrace.

schizophrenia is a debilitating illness that affects the individual mood behaviour emotions motivation impacts upon the activities of daily living a diagnosis of schizophrenia interrupts education work and impedes an individuals potential which they don’t get to fulfil because of the impact of the illness . the treatment is medication, social activity, contact with community mental health team , psychiatric review and concordance with medication. Despite this case, the majority of people with schizophrenia live quietly and are more likely to be at risk of abuse and experienced abuse as a result of that illness. People with schizophrenia are brothers mothers sisters uncles parents and as well as the individual with that diagnosis they’re also their family and their love ones who are impacted by the diagnosis too. The thread simply attests to some of the unsavoury prejudiced stigma that still exists about schizophrenia and mental health globally.

The case that’s always taught in university is Christopher clunis Who stabbed Jonathan Zito in Finsbury Park. As a result of the public outcry and competing by Jonathan Zito partner Jayne there were significant changes in mental health practice

treatment such as early intervention service into work with the individual promptly to try and minimise the impact of schizophrenia diagnosis and maximise that individuals potential to live with the illness. There is family work undertaken to help the individual and the family court with the diagnosis and work through feeling surrounded the stigma and fear that the diagnosis brings

it is not the role of the judiciary to appease the public or majority opinion by manipulating sentencing guidelines to hand down a sentence as a punishment. The role of the judiciary is to be impartial and neutral reasons and unbound is look at all the documentation all the evidence and come to a reasonable decision. There needs to be an impartiality in the judiciary to maintain good practice uphold standards and not be swayed by the pressure of media or public opinion

Autocorrect Typo. The role of the judiciary is to be impartial and neutral reasoned and be bound to look at all the documentation all the evidence and come to a reasonable decision

That's the Tories all over. They hate anything that costs money and don't care about anything that doesn’t make them or their donors money.

Yes, he planned it out in his extremely disturbed mind! He possibly thought he needed to do this/he was doing the right thing etc. It’s very difficult to understand when you have a logical, rational mind, he clearly hadn’t. I’m so sorry for those young people and their families, it’s a horrific tragedy, but I believe that manslaughter, given his mental state, is the right verdict and he’s unlikely to ever be released….what other punishment could he have been given?

there is a link between the use of cannabis in (male) teenagers and young adults & psychosis (which is a symptom of schizophrenia)

This is bending over backwards to make excuses for murder. This criminal murdered three people and it’s said to not be murder because he has mental illness. How many of these mental health excuse potential murders are out in society at the moment? What can I and family carry to protect myself against a potential attack? An attack that will be met with a nice understanding by the system? The family says carrying a knife needs a prison sentence and they are right. What can ordinary people do to protect themselves? What do the victims families want to happen about their loved ones murder? Give the victims families a say in the judgment. They say it was murder and it actually was as their loved ones were knifed to death. There’s no getting around that fact sadly. Criminals need to face their crimes not get by with excuses.

Exactly!!!! He planned it by buying the knifes. There was a warrant out for his arrest for a previous assault. He should have been locked up if his mental health was that bad.

Do you know what, may I add I was reading all the news comments on facebook about this and I literally went to bed with tears in my eyes, we are in 2024 and the ignorance I was reading towards this illness was like something from an era back in the day, it is scary how uneducated people still are about this illness.

As I have mentioned above my Dad has got this illness and he did not take drugs, I kind of wish he had so at least it would have been his own fault he got this but he isn't wild killing people, he has been holed up at home for 30 odd years trembling and pacing up and down from the strong medication, sits there with no expression or emotion, barely speaks and that's his life, he lost everything and had a brand new family, wife, babies and suddenly got this illness. I am not wrongly sticking up for the man who did this , his actions were heartbreaking but he had zero help or idea of what he was doing, imagine having no control over your thoughts. Thinking everyone is plotting to kill you, hearing voices, seeing walls set on fire, feeling so scared seeing unreal images of people in your room with scary horror film like faces but to them it is real and then thinking people are trying to poison you with medication, everything is warped. I sound like I am only thinking of the mans side and not the victims, if I was the victims family I would not care what sad story the guy had got, I wouldn't care if they had been abused as a child, beaten, raped, I would literally have no sympathy because they have done a heartbreaking and personal thing to me but for people it has not personally affected yes you can feel compassion but you should be able to detach and have knowledge and not show such lack of ignorance on a situation that if you knew about the illness was not made by choice and it is scary the amount of people who can freely say beat him etc what a society we live in and a society and system that fails people with poor mental health.

I also know someone whos brother had the illness and whilst in hospital she said she can remember a single tear roll down his face from having this illness and being scared to hurt people (before the ignorant say so he knew what he could and couldn't do, schizoprenics can have normal moments) so much so that he hung himself from a pier so he wasn't a danger to others. I would not wish this curse on anyone and when I found out what my dad had I cried for 2 years straight, I grieved so hard and then when he dies I will grieve again for the shit life he had and then just death.

Please if you don't know about this illness, ai can't even say the word then go read up on it, go watch youtube videos of what it sounds like in their head, their plea is not an excuse to get away with it.

Link,yes. Causation,no.
drug use in itself doesn’t Cause schizophrenia there is no such correlation

@shellyleppard but he wasn't locked up because he got failed! He did not have a sound mind when buying the knives. Educate yourself.

@ButterCrackers
He got charged with attempted murder for ramming people with a van so why not charge him with murder for actually murdering?

This is the thing that I didn't really understand

ButterCrackers what do you think a secure hospital is

do you think they are nice comfortable places where patients can do what they want, wonder around and out into the community as they please

He will be serving his sentence and unlikely to ever leave a secure setting just he will also be getting the correct treatment for his illness

The guy is locked up in a high security facility for the rest of his life.

In what way is he experiencing a nice understanding by the system because the system has recognised he was seriously mentally ill and had diminished responsibility at the time due to the hallucinations and delusions which were out of his control? How is he not facing his crime? He's likely got a longer sentence this way then if he got a standard murder charge and was out in 20 years because he is under section which means unless they truly believe him to be safe he will never be allowed to go no matter how long he's been there.

It's uncomfortable but any single one of us could develop a serious psychosis at any point in our lives. Let's hope someone is able to look at your illness objectively and rationally and without this rediculous mob mentality if you do.

Because he was suffering from severe and enduring mental illness to a degree that the balance of his mind was impaired, hence the diminished responsibility. He was experiencing command hallucinations this manifest as the individual hearing voices which to them are real telling him that if he did not kill others his family would be killed. This caused him to be in an agitated state and act upon the command hallucinations. Buying the knives in its self is not indicative of planning a murder it’s simply indicative of buying a knife. His thought processes cognition and understanding of reality were all significantly impaired by his illness. This was not an individual purposefully and intentionally Planning and executing premeditated acts of murder and violence. Five forensics psychiatrists submitted reports and they all agreed with each other that this was diminished responsibility as a result of his illness

its a huge problem now particularly with young men
drug induced psychosis and the long term impact on mh and schizophrenia are presenting in similar ways

many professionals are questioning this now

I have been trying to understand this too. I think it’s because you cannot “attempt” manslaughter, you cannot attempt something you don’t mean to do. So the fact he tried to kill them has to be attempted murder, but because they survived he can’t be charged with murder and had they been killed it would have been manslaughter the same as the other charges. It’s all technicalities.

No. You are conflating unrelated clinical areas
Drug just psychosis is not in its self schizophrenia. drug induced psychosis as the name suggests is psychosis that can be temporary or short-term directly as a result of taking drugs. Often it can be temporary and resolved in a matter of days and not be present when the individual is abstinent from drug use.

Schizophrenia is a chronic and debilitating condition that is not causative from drug use. Schizophrenia remain present whether or not the individual takes drugs and does not resolve in a matter of days in the absence of drugs. Drug use does adversely impact schizophrenia as it can make the symptoms worse. However drug use does not cause schizophrenia.

See also the 'Yorkshire Ripper'

Assessed by 3 expert forensic psychiatrists as sufficiently psychotic to diminish responsibility
Judge decided otherwise largely for political reasons/appeasing the public and sent him to prison
Sutcliffe was floridly psychotic and un-manageable in prison so quietly transferred to Broadmoor a few weeks later

This benefitted no-one

It looks as if there’s going to be a case review now. I honestly have no idea why the charge wasn’t murder in the first place with the defence using his mental health issues as mitigation. The outcome would gave been exactly the same but the families would have felt justice had been done.

My DD worked in a MH med secure unit, we as a family had to deal with MiL who was sectioned but despite this, left at home with no support as there was no beds.
When she did eventually get in house treatment, she didn't, just left in a room and was then sexually abused, no trained staff at weekends, staff that were there could barely speak English

So you couldn't be more wrong, MH services in this country are almost Dickensian

There are times when whole areas of the country have no beds in any unit to house a sectioned patient.
Money is thrown, short term at the problem but it takes years to train, treble that time to build new units, so the money thrown is wasted as its only for a year or two, then a change of policy.

Before Care in the Community, we had large Mental hospitals, tucked away, often in the country, these were sold, turned into housing/golf clubs/hotels (many people made a lot of money from this policy) and the in patients left to manage their own medication, then along came austerity.

We need a massive increase in preventative, MH unit capacity & staff numbers or accept these tragic murders will continue.

I can't really see the point of a sentence review. He's not going to get out. And he will also have no chance of parole.