Nottingham attacks - verdict

[DrunkenElephant]

I live in Nottingham and feel terribly sad reading the news today.

Could these deaths have been avoided if the police and mental health agencies had done more? But then how can more be done when services are on their knees?

I don’t know the answer to either question, but my hearts go out to the families of Barnaby, Grace and Ian.

But he knew what he was going to do....he planned it out. Also tried attacking some one else but they fought back. I'm sorry for his mental health problem but in my opinion it was murder

@shellyleppard premeditation doesn’t mean he wasn’t unwell. I act for paranoid schizophrenic clients who have been detained due to planning to hurt someone because they are ill and delusional.

There are some really ignorant comments on this thread.

Planning and premeditation are completely compatible with diminished responsibility. Why would you think that someone desperately deluded and probably terrified wouldn't be able to make plans?

Perhaps there is confusion among some people about the different types of reasons why a killing might be considered manslaughter and not murder,

Lack of premeditation is just one reason: A completely same person could be charged with manslaughter rather than murder murder on the grounds of their lack of premeditation. A completely separate reason for a manslaughter charge is diminished responsibility. In such a case, the presence or absence of premeditiation/planning is not the issue. The only question at stake is their mental health. This man was unequivocally seriously mentally ill.

There is a lot of ignorance surrounding psychosis and schizophrenia in this thread which ironally attitudes such as this mean people with these conditions are less likely to be honest about what they are experiencing to support services and less likely to trust people and professionals until they are severely unwell and require emergency intervention.

I think maybe even if the killer had showed the tiniest bit of remorse, the families might feel a bit differently but he hasn't. I understand why they are so very angry. Obviously I don't know whether he is still in a paranoid state but you would have thought that if he had had better periods since last June of being more lucid or understanding the gravity of his actions, then he may have expressed some remorse to the families at some point. He was deemed ok to attend court yet showed no remorse at all.

I didn't dispute the fact that he was unwell......but he planned the attacks..... As in multiple. He didn't just kill those three innocent pry. He also attempted to kill another three by driving at them in a stolen van which belonged to his third victim. Hmmm

Whilst I can understand the families feeling like this because they are so emotionally tied to the situation and so what ever emotions they feel are valid, for everyone else realistically expecting him to show remorse so soon is unreasonable on the basis that he plausibly could still be experiencing severe paranoid illness / psychosis. He could be so medicated that he has limited capacity (anti-psychotics in strong doses are intense drugs). Also having become so unwell that you have violently stabbed to death people is an extreme extreme trauma. He could be too traumatised to even comprehend what he's done as a thing that he's done. People do shut down to that extent of trauma. My friend worked in Rampton and saw that kind of thing about crimes commited alot.

Expecting him to be remorseful is expecting him to be able to think well and rationally and he is very sick. He might never be well enough to be legitimately remorseful, or he may be one day and the gravity of his actions could make him even more sick.

We shouldn't apply the same expectations to someone this sick that we would apply to someone well no matter how emotional the situation is- that's why the families of victims shouldn't have direct say in the punishments or treatments of people who commit crimes particularly when someone is mentally ill like this ultimately.

If he was that unwell then how come he was made to go to court and sit through the trial then? If he is that unwell and drugged up surely he should have been exempt? At one point Barnaby's mum screamed at him that he was a pig. I don't understand why , if he's that ill that he should have been allowed there to face that kind of thing if so traumatized ( although I appreciate her anger ).

Because he was deemed to have capacity at the time of the trail enough to attend the trial.

That does not mean someone is well on the same scale as someone who does not have severe mental illness. That doesn't mean that he isn't in high level anti-psychotics. That doesn't mean that he is able to reasonable understand and process what he's done to he demonstrating remorse in a way that people want him to be.

@Babyroobs he couldn't show remorse because I think you and people are failing to understand that he can't choose his emotions or actions, he is completely taken over by a mind that is so poorly it cannot make rational decisions. My Dad has got this horrid illness and one of the symptoms is that they have negative emotions so they don't show emotions happy or sad they are just passive, I walked out in my wedding dress, you know the moment all dads cry and he didnt bat an eyelid, not by choice but because life gave him a vile illness. What has happened is absolutely awful but there is definately more sympathy when it comes to new mothers who have physcosis and want to harm their babies.

If I was the vicitims families I wouldn't care about what illness he had either but for people passing comment on something you know nothing about is ignorant. Imagine doing the things in your everyday life, making a cup of tea, getting in the car, go food shopping (and yes I know this is not the same as bloody killing people) but imagine how normal you think this is but then imagine you get arrested for it and sent to prison because you didn't know what you were doing was wrong.

My son had a normal healthy childhood. He did well at school and landed on his feet time and time again with advanced positions for his age and was head hunted by large companies from 19 upwards. He was my rock. No history of MH issues etc with him.

at 24 he had a psychotic break and I had to bring him home to live with us again (he’d been off working across the Uk since just before 18th birthday). He refused the assistance from MH services as he didn’t think anything was wrong with him. By the time forced MH assistance was accessible he’d been arrested multiple times as he was a Danger to him self and others - including me and his younger brother. He’s now 30.

hes 6’5” and now a shell of his former self mentally and physically.

He’s high functioning (ie not stupid and knows to mask his symptoms and beliefs until he’s too ill to do so).

He has never believed he’s ill. Thinks everyone else is making it up etc.

he’s been sectioned for pretty much 3 years now and passed from one hospital to another as they get to the year mark (after a year on a secure acute ward there is an investigation for hospital managers as to why someone is still in). He tends to get moved in the last week or two to a different hospital.

There is no where long term that can manage his acute condition. This is due to lack of funding and investment in MH services for children, adults and the elderly as these folks aren’t deemed valuable by the powers that be that specify funding priorities. It’s not like these folks are their main voters and that’s why I feel they aren’t prioritising them more..

my son is now classed as a ‘treatment resistant paranoid schizophrenic’. He will never be the child and man I or his brother loved again. He will never recover.

the hospitals occasionally fall for his masked attempts of behaving normally and let him have more freedom. And that’s when he goes awol and the police need to search for him and I worry one day he will give into his delusions (mainly around AI/police/Putin - who thinks he’s a double agent etc) and harm someone. He’s had several suicide attempts over the years and I do feel he will hurt himself and/or others fatally one day.

the hospital environment doesn’t help. The injections aren’t working. He won’t get better. But they can’t hold him forever. There is no where to place him.

when he was at home in the early days we’d get told he’d need sectioning (so would he) - and in the next breath we’d all be told there were no beds available. Imagine being at home with someone that is threatening to harm you or himself and having to live like that for days/weeks… I see it all the time in some of the support groups I’m in.

Scared to be in the house with him, scared what he’d do if he went out.. not able to stop him going out, monitoring what he wore each time in case I needed to report him missing later.. which direction he went in.. sometimes following him..

people like this man in the news. It doesn’t surprise me. And I feel it’s a multi agency failure but mainly - the service and communication is very disjointed, underfunded, not enough staff, lack or resources, not enough powers..

I get told often my son still has capacity to refuse services, assistance, tell staff they can’t engage with me, burn through his money on schemes and scams, take me off next of kin as I’m working against him with Vladimir…

the whole MH system is on its knees. Sorry for the ramble - I just feel for the families of these victims, the people hurt with the ripples of the event etc, and the families with sons and daughters just as ill who worry that one day it will be our children harming others and no matter how much we beg for help we can’t stop the system failing folks.

What I meant is he must have been well enough to be let go, and the medicine would keep in line had he not skipped the taking?

It really is sad that so many people are so ignorant of conditions like paranoid schizophrenia.

Yes it may have been planned, but it wasn’t planned by a man of sound mind. He had severe, enduring mental illness that made him suffer hallucinations and delusions. If he had received the treatment he so desperately needed, or been detained for a period of more than a few days at a time things may well have been different. If you have never experienced paranoid schizophrenia first hand I understand it can be difficult to grasp. There is no point debating whether he was calm, remorseful, taking his meds - psychological experts and other medical professionals have assessed and diagnosed him, he has been in and out of treatment for a long time.

One of the women I worked with was convinced her unborn child was the devil and had very real plans to cut the baby out of her body and murder it in order to save the world. You could sit and have a very calm, normal conversation with this woman and not have any idea of her illness. It was scary how mentally well she appeared. It was only the odd sentence here and there that made professionals sit up and ask the right questions that led to her being detained. She was released two days later because she appealed, was taking her medication and appeared to be of sound mind on the day of her appeal. That’s it, free to go. The risk to herself and her unborn was no less severe than it was when she was admitted.

God, there’s a thread in mental health right now from a woman who is clearly very unwell with psychosis- it’s chilling to read.

It is a sad fact that until people suffering with this illness are able to access support, real ongoing support, that there is a very real risk that this will happen again and again and again.

@TheCatterall sorry to hear this, as mentioned above my Dad has got it and to grieve someone that is still alive is a pain that never ends, seeing someone you love completely change. You never see the pain this illness causes not only them but their families and the thought of them hearing voices, being scared and losing their mind is heartbreaking to see someone you love live like this.

I'm not trying to be disrespecrful to the victims families because it is so bloody awful.

My heart just goes out to you reading this post. My own son, aged 11, has complex autism and mental health needs - he’s currently undergoing psychotherapy with CAMHS. We’ve fought to get this for 2 years. I am worried for his future, his care needs. He’s currently in a specialist school but what next? The system isn’t fit for purpose.

@TheCatterall I am so sorry

I am desperately sad for all involved in this case. It was preventable and it shouldn’t have happened.

Yes of course it could have been prevented but don't worry lessons will be learnt.
We hear this in child abuse cases. There is so much incompetence around and nobody gets held to account so it carries on.

I don't know how the families keep their shit together when this happens.
There was mistakes in the Sara Everard Case too and another lady who got murdered in London after a man was seen following women.
Lots of people should not have been in the street in the first place, or should have been recalled to prison and they weren't.

There is no protection for the general public it's awful. Scary world and far too much incompetence around.
The government dosent give a shit about your safety. It will happen again. It's pot luck.

*But he hasn't got away with murder. He has been detained for likely the rest of his life for killing. That's not getting away with anything. It's a stronger punishment then many people get when actually tried for murder as he wont experience parole in the same way someone not under a section experiences it. He'll likely never be considered safe for release.

I can understand the families feeling like this because they are so emotionally tied to the situation that is bound to impact how they think and feel about it and it is very sad for them, but it makes no sense for anyone else to feel like this.

What more consequences is there meant to be higher then life long detainment?*

Absolutely this. People on the BBC news Facebook feeds are baying for his blood and demanding the return of the death sentence. That wouldn't achieve anything.

Mental health services let people go who are incredibly sick and not well enough to be let go because there are not enough beds. This happens all the time.

Also someone this unwell does not have the capacity to control their own medication, they often believe they are not sick and do not think they need the medication to believe the medication is a plot to make them sick etc.

You don't understand schizophrenia

Sending love to you and your son, @TheCatterall. That sounds so very hard. My own son, also schizophrenic, killed himself a few years ago. It sounds terrible to say this, but I don't even know which is worse - dying from this condition or living with it

Thank you for the reply.
No, I don't understand details about schizophrenia or any other mental disorder, thankfully, except maybe depression to some degree.
Still sounds very wrong to let people with that kind of MD, free to go.

@GoodOldEmmaNess massive hugs. I hope you have the acceptance and support you need in your life.

I feel like I’m already grieving the loss of my son as I knew him and the life and possibilities he had ahead of him. I’m just waiting for the other shoe to drop and for that - what feels like an inevitable event - call from the hospital or police to say he’s gone after one attempt too many. It’s not a matter of if - but ‘when’ for me.

My partner (not DS dad) thinks it’s macabre of me - I feel it’s self preservation and acceptance that it will one day happen. Even the consultants have told me that they expect him to take his life one day.

An absolutely nightmare people like this. Why don't they engage with services and take their medication.

What a cruel world we live in. Inocent people dead and a man locked up all for what?
Why didn't he take his own.life instead of others lives. Its not their fault he has mental health problems?

I'm so sorry it is so hard for you, @TheCatterall . I know the feelings you describe. When my son did actually die I felt almost numb to it, because I had feared and anticipated it for so long. It felt almost as if I was getting confirmation of something that had already happened a long time before.
None of those words are quite right. It is all just so confusing. Even in the cold quiet aftermath, let alone going through all the day to day worries that you contend with. Be very kind to yourself xxx

So true. My Mum wholeheartedly believed that the nurses and doctors in her psychiatric ward were Russian spies sent to try to extract information from her and the other patients, she thought the drugs they were giving her were purely to keep her from speaking out and it was all part of some huge conspiracy theory. I remember visiting her as a 5/6 year old child and she was allowed to take me round the grounds (this was the 1980s) and I remember her frantically telling me to be quiet because the flowers on the curtains round the beds were able to listen to us talk and would repeat back what we’d said to the doctors. So she would only talk to me outside. As a child I utterly believed her, of course. When she was discharged she immediately stopped taking her medication and was re sectioned about 6-8 weeks later.