DD lying. What to do?

[Carston]

She’s 13 and we are constantly finding out about little things she has lied about. Sneaking technology into her room at night, having secret social media accounts, faking being ill to avoid PE, taking my clothes without asking and claiming they were in her room and she had no idea. Those are just some examples. Some of the lies are completely pointless but she will never ever admit that she has lied or why. She also has an issue with asking for things. She just takes them. Whatever it is. We are not unreasonable and would generally say yes to most of the requests but she just won’t ask and then will get very upset and say she didn’t do it. We talk to her and agree to all be better at honesty etc and then it just happens again. I’m so upset and it seems like she’s just a compulsive liar.

The latest lie just feels like the final straw to me. What do I do? Get locks on rooms in the house? Seems like an awful way to live. Get her counselling? Take away her phone? I’ve tried talking to her in a non judgmental, non-angry way but the key is she won’t admit to most of the lies.

@Trixiefirecracker of course I didn't mean let them use it all day and all night. I meant 7 days is too long to take it away imo.

The real breakthrough that stopped DD lying to me was explaining to her that the rules are only ever there to protect her.
Her lying and sneaking around, instead of having an honest and respectful discussion only hindered the freedom that she had because it meant that not only were other people untrustworthy, but so was she. It lead to us having to be ultra Conservative with our decisions about what freedoms she was afforded because she needed to be kept safe.

When she really understood we always found out when she was lying, and it lead to restrictions of her freedom she attempted to be open and more honest.

She is now more honest, and rarely lies, but has more freedom than most of her friends because we can find compromise in line with her decision making, and there are always plans for if something goes wrong- that she can always rely on us without judgement.

@AfterTheSummer and @SpidersAreShitheads make really good points and with three teenagers myself, I think it’s sound advice that I wish I had been more aware of when my eldest went through this. Yes it’s a phase and yes they grow out of it so don’t panic.

Two of mine are also ND so the advice in not forcing a confession is sound and just saying “I see you’ve taken x, next time please ask because I had planned on wearing it”. I found confrontation rarely worked for mine and tended to make them less communicative. That’s definitely not what you want longer term I’m sure.

You are her parent and ultimately up to you but I stopped doing the removing phone as punishment when after a long period of trying it with my eldest simply didn’t work. It cuts them off from their friends and makes them feel isolated. Out of the bedroom at night works to a degree until they’re a bit older.

im sure she will be fine though.

Why do we have to keep doing something we don't like, struggle with? Why can't we just give it up?

We expect more of children in school than we ever do of adults. There is nowhere in adult life that is as pedantic for rules as a secondary school!

They don't have to stick at it about everything - let them stop the thing that's making them utterly miserable.

As for PE nowadays... you don't have the same perspective. It's 99.9% of the time not the activity that is the issue - its not that a kid doesn't like football or rounders - it's the 'banter' that goes on in the changing rooms, it's the getting changed in front of everyone. It's the not having natural PE skills and PE teachers not celebrating that too.

If it were up to me, the kids that ARE 'sporty' great, go play sport - the kids that aren't - take them walking, gardening, put on music they like and just move however you like, anything active is better than making kids feel like their only option is to hide and lie.

I haven’t read the whole thread, so apologies if this has been said.
Relationships of trust need to work both ways. Explain if you can’t trust her with the small things now, how will you be able to trust her when she’s older? Then act!! No I won’t take to to the cinema/ club etc…. Because to lied to me about…… so how do I know if you’re actually going to go to the cinema etc….. ( and don’t take her, because you can’t trust her!) . Toughen up but turn the trust issues around. She’ll learn.

I disagree that constant lying is normal behaviour which is to be accepted. However, teens will be teens!!

I would read @SpidersAreShitheads post very carefully and listen to them.
Your parenting style and the way you talk to your kids has to evolve as they grow, and this is another stage in that process. Talk to her less like she's a kid getting things wrong. She needs to start having trust and autonomy so that she doesn't feel like she has to hide things and lie.
Punishments and lectures are one way of parenting, but probably not the most effective as they head towards adulthood.
And re the clothes - can't you try to enjoy it?! I have three teens and always find it funny when they like my things and generally ending up lending them, sometimes indefinitely. Or can you take her shopping to buy her the kind of things she's borrowing?

I am there with 13 yr old dd, the consequence is we rarely belive what she says (lots of examples of lying directly to me over I consequential thins eg have you cleaned your teeth?) and we keep the amount of time she is at home alone to a minimum. So she sometimes has to go into work with us in the holidays rather than stay home and hang out with her friends.

It is a massive pain in the arse but she needs to see there are consequences for dishonesty and it's not fair on her elder sister who gets her stuff taken.

I am hoping that she will mature and this will pass.

My lovely friends Dd did this similar age. It’s in the bounds of normal but certainly not “what they all do” and needs constant clamping down on. The stage passed she’s 18 now and doesn’t still do it. Wearing though.

Teenagers brains are wired differently, they have a different logic. Eg if a teen comes home drunk and gets in to trouble then the next time they are drunk they may well think sleeping the alcohol off in the park is a good idea.

I'm NOT saying your DD is drinking, just using it as an example.

Is she really taking your clothes (in teenage brain logic)? Or is she going in your room for something else, seeing an item and thinking, "I wonder what I would look like in that?"

Then she takes it in to her room, tries it on, takes it off, is distracted by a text and forgets about it?

In teenage logic this is not borrowing without permission because she didn't intend to borrow.

In my opinion @Carston, both toddlers and teenagers are hard wired to push boundaries.
Of course the boundaries they push are very different ones, but their reasons for pushing them are very similar.

Unfortunately a toddler usually has to have a lot of negative feed back, as their boundaries are often to do with safety, but they are also to do with them - unconsciously - testing their parents and/or guardians with how much they they can trust them. The negativity needs to be counter balanced with lots of genuine positivity and fun whenever positivity. It doesn't matter what age we are, if we are constantly being told "no" or are being treated negatively all the time, we will rebel in one way or another.

Of course with teenagers it is much more about them learning how to behave generally, and in differing situations, how to act in a way that helps them to be liked by their peers. That includes how to have confidence in their own decision making, and learning where they fit into any of the different hierarchies that they might find themselves in - and also hopefully learning how their "fitting in" can be a positve thing within any given hierarchy. That may include how often their position within one may change, and how to accept or decline those changes, and how to challenge them when it is beneficial to themselves to do so.

These things are (again) of course, only the tip of the iceberg. I believe that as parents/guardians, the best gift we can give our children is that of being able to have confidence in themselves - to believe know that they are both liked and loved, and that they deserve to be. If they can find out as teenagers at least some of the things that they are good at, and maybe even excel at, and if they enjoy those things, and can discover a way to build on those strengths in a way that they find satisfying, then that would hopefully go a long way in helping them navigate their teenage years in a very positive way. It would of course also be good if they can accept with ease those things that they are not so good at, and to learn with very little, to no stress at all, whether they are things that they want to learn to do, or whether the lesson this time is to understand and accept that they, in fact no-one, can be good at everything, and that that is absolutely fine!

I think that the extremely difficult thing for us parents to manage, is to know how much leeway and support we should give our teenagers, in order for them to learn and grow in confidence, and in any other ways that are needed for them to become likeable and able adults. We need to remember that not only are our teenagers fallable humans, but we are too. So, if we need to and are able to give any help during this often very trying stage (remember they are supposed to be pushing boundaries), please do not share any amusement you may get from their efforts with any other living soul, because ~ again imo ~ we should only be thinking and behaving in a way that shows both ourselves, and any observers (including our teenagers) how proud we are of our offspring, while always treating them with respect and dignity. I firmly believe that if we want any respect from our own, and maybe other peoples teenagers as well, then we need to show them our respect too.

I have no idea if you could be bothered to read this whole post OP (or anyone else), but if you have, thank you. I just wanted to add that I agree with the PPs who think you are being far too negative with your DT, and wanting to punish things that just don't deserve any punishment. I certainly lied about being too ill to do P.E. (I hated it for several reasons), and I used to sneakily read my book under my covers with a torch, but as an adult I have turned into a stickler for honesty concerning myself, and any adults that I love, except very occassionally when telling a genuine white lie.

From when ours were young we stressed the importance of trust. If they owned up they got a much lighter punishment than if they lied, or even no consequence at all. Lies had severe consequences though.

Id say this to her. Stress that you will wipe the slate clean and start again. Impress on her how it’s imperative that she can trust you. How would she feel if she can’t trust you? And obviously the reverse is true. You need to be able to trust her.
Tell her that she won’t get into trouble about missing pe, that there is obviously a good reason and you’d like to help her. Tbh even if it’s just she hates it, I’d support her and not make her do it. It’s more important to get some honest communication going between you at this point. Some give and take from both sides. How you handle this will be the cornerstone for all her teenage years. Give her some agency.

Punish the lies as well as the actual transgression but make the punishment for lying much more severe. Like phone in her room at night loses her the phone for 24 hours. Lying about it loses her the phone for another 2 weeks.

You have to learn to let go and to pick your battles.
I’d say the PE issue requires careful investigation. School changing rooms are like the Wild West, not closely supervised and full of teasing and banter that is not always as good-natured as people might claim.
However, ease up on the other issues. ‘Secret’ social media accounts are not very secret at all if you’ve managed to find them. But your child is beginning to be their own person, and having social media accounts to connect with their friends and not with you is part of that. I wouldn’t go on too much about the dangers of the internet. They’ll have heard it all at school and are probably already much savvier about navigating it than anyone in older generations.
And like others I’m only impressed that she’s trying on your clothes. I assume you would have noticed if she’s actually wearing them out of the house, so she is only trying them on and forgetting to return them. I assume she’s lying about it because you’re asking her about it in an accusatory way. If you made a joke about it, said that you were flattered but could she please ask in future and remember to return them it would all blow over.

This isn't normal. OP said her DD will never admit nor ask usually. This isn't how all teens behave.

Sounds totally normal (but irritating) to me. I did all those things as a teenager- I don’t ever lie now.

I think if the lying has become habit then there’s an issue.

I had a friend who constantly told white lies or overt exaggerated everything. We are now in our 30s and she still does like even though it’s so blatantly a lie! So I’d say it needs sorting now so she doesn’t lie as habit in adulthood.

I worked with 2 main rules with my lot when they were teens.

1. Choices have consequences, positive or negative, so the action chosen means that the consequences to that action have also been chosen, so it's not fair doesn't hold.

1. The more open and honest they were, the more freedom they got.

With the above, it firmly puts the teen in the driving seat, with autonomy of their own choices (within reason).

The PE thing needs looking into further and a chat with her teacher may be in order. We had an issue with a PE teacher who took rather a strong dislike to my son following him whistling to himself (not wolf whistling) and she started telling him not to get changed and sit in the changing room, sending him out halfway through lessons - this was backed up by other students following a formal complaint and investigation. The school uses an app to communicate and he was getting achievements and house points in every lesson but hers and she was spamming it with negative points each time he had PE. Children can also be really cruel at that age. When I was that age at school it was all about shaving your legs and who was wearing a bra, who had started their period etc. She may feel really embarrassed about it.

The lies are quite normal. I would ask yourself how strict you are as a parent and I don't mean that to sound harsh. If you put a lot of pressure on a child to achieve or behave well it can sometimes backfire when they hit their teens. You may not even feel you have been, but she may feel as such. If she won't talk, maybe some counselling? Family sessions? Maybe speak to the school and see if they can arrange some in house counselling for her.

There may be some distressing secret she feels compelled to keep. All this casual lying can be born out of either an unconscious resentment that none of her caregivers have spotted or guilt over keeping something significant from you and this obvious lying is designed for her to be caught and punished in order to balance the scales for the bigger issue. Tread carefully OP.

One of my kids was like that and i sat him down when we weren’t in the middle of a lie and said that i could handle anything but i couldn’t handle lying. I said i would be very punitive over lying from now on, and i was. I still go nuts if there is a hint of a lie, it made a huge difference.

I would take away the opportunity to lie in the first place, Have a clean fresh start.Give your DD the opportunity to take some control and work on the basis of trust.All this could be done in a way thats controlled by you but she would never know that bit! I did this with my DD. So first off and I know it is not healthy but tell her you know about the social media accounts.You dont like it but you are going to trust her to do the right thing armed with the knowledge of the obvious pitfalls that can happen but tell her you trust her to do the right thing,putting the onus on her,No phone confiscation needed.
The borrowing of clothes...is it really such a big deal? Yes its a pain but she is growing up and trying to experiment and find her way with clothes.You could guide her here.Tell her of course she can use certain clothes but there are pieces she cannot as they are special to you.She can use whatever she likes but she must look after them and treat them well and return them in the same condition she found them when she took them.Again putting the responsibility on her to think and to behave responsibly.
The PE..Can you convince her by reshaping the argument that its good for her.?Its going to help her be strong and healthy and is great for maintaining a good weight and this with making good food choices is all rolled up in a way thats not just a waste of time and a pain to do but its healthy.If you look at some of the influences on you tube like Leonora Smee or Josie they are all about the importance of fitness and beauty and fashion etc. Maybe you could suggest if she does PE at school you could look into maybe doing something slightly more appealing together on a weekend maybe? Something like swimming or pilates anything she can decide.Its a trade off to get what you ultimately want,an open,honest dd and letting her feel she has some control too,
No punishments needed just talking and finding a way through together. If she can then come to you honestly when she messes up which she will,we all do then its going to be so much better.And to be honest PE in school is crap! I dont blame her for feeling like she does but its part of the school day and its got to be done but if by doing that she gets to do a class at the end of her choice then maybe the trade off will be worth it for both of you.

I see nothing wrong with therapy fir this. I would recommend it before it truly gets out of hand. Therapy is not punishment !

She’s pushing the boundaries and seeing what she can get away with. Normal teenage behaviour.

I remove devices for sneaky online activity.
Grounded for disrespectful behaviour towards others.
If she takes my clothes I take it as a compliment.
She used my makeup, I bought her her own similar and now she doesn’t take mine.

Pick your battles basically because it’s just the start. Teenagers are selfish, even the nice ones.

My nearly-13yo is fairly honest (or at least will admit to lies later) I think in part because she knows we won't come down on her like a tonne of bricks. We let her make her own decisions and deal with the consequences as far as is reasonable. She knows what's not on though, and she now does things like regulate her own sleep/manage her lunch budget fairly spontaneously.

I don’t think it’s wise to frame these as identity or character flaws. They’re just a bunch of stupid impulsive teenage behaviours. But if you create an identity around them you’ll make it far, far harder for her to step out of this phase.

Lying is usually the path of least resistance because something uncomfortable is on the other path. Why do you need her to admit anything if the evidence is incontrovertible? Shaming her solves nothing.

But it creates awful problems. Before you know it the “why” has become “because I’m a bad person” or “because I’ll get blamed anyway”

Small, fair, consistent consequences every time will sort it. Less you talk about it the better.